New EIC ammo for rules change

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New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Jkvandal on Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:18 pm

First topic message reminder :

So it seems that the ammo has been opened up for the 1911 for EIC competition to any weight metal jacketed bullets...unfortunately this doesn't quite fall into my plans of casting my bullets for the upcoming season.

What options are out there for jacketed ammo that will be a step up for accuracy and recoil from the 230gr for the .45? I'd assume it would be some sort of hollow point bullet between 185-200gr?

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Jkvandal on Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:52 pm

Rob,

You use that load at 50 or 25 yards? Or both?

-John

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:03 pm

It is my best 50 yard load, but it works great at 25 also.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by LenV on Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:57 am

jkvandal,

   Rob's formula is very close to mine but if you go with the HAP bullets you need a C.O.L. of just a little over 1.23. Mine are set at 1.235. Any shorter gives a poor crimp. As far as the difference between 4.2 and 4.3 there probably is none. I use the .46 collet on my Lee progressive. The load info says that is supposed to be 4.3 gr when loading BE. I have measured many times and it throws 4.2. So I go with 4.2.

Len

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by JHirtle on Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:19 pm

Rob: any experience with W231 vs BE for the nosler/zero 185's? new to pistol, getting set up....was shooting them a bit heavier (5.7 W231), but no reason to load hotter than I need to for 50yds

(ideally, I want to shoot 1 load @ 25/50)

No bullseye to be found anywhere around here.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Rob Kovach on Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:49 am

The guy that owned my gun before me used WST, W231, and Clays to good success.  I think he had the best luck with Clays.  When I say Clays, I couldn't tell you which clays he meant....  His clays charge was very similar to the BE charge within a tenth of a grain-or 2.

That bullet is so good, I'm sure there are many recipes with different powders that would work well.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by C.Perkins on Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:51 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:The guy that owned my gun before me used WST, W231, and Clays to good success.  I think he had the best luck with Clays.  When I say Clays, I couldn't tell you which clays he meant....  His clays charge was very similar to the BE charge within a tenth of a grain-or 2.

That bullet is so good, I'm sure there are many recipes with different powders that would work well.

That would be Clays
and Universal Clays.
Do not use International Clays, Hodgdon warns of pressure spikes using International Clays in pistol loads.

Clarence


Last edited by C.Perkins on Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:03 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added Clays)

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Froneck on Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:27 am

For those thinking this will make the Distinguished Medal easier to get are dreaming, remember everyone can use the same lighter bullet.
 The really tough match is going to be the .22 Distinguish, I'll bet cut-off will be in the high 280's
 In reading the previous posts I seen someone state that it should be a felony for a 2650 shooter to sign the score card?? Why??? The National Champions for the last 20 yeas at least were 2650 shooters!
 When I Legged out ammo was issued by the box of 50 and Presidents was 2 boxes. Later it was changed to just 30 and 40 rounds, if you had an alibi you were issued only enough to shoot the alibi string. Then TZZ was issued until the Marines discovered it was Machine Gun Ammo and not safe for pistol. I was told it blew up a Marines Ball target pistol that was just built for him by the Armorer.
 I doubt this change will increase participation, they don't realize that paying to enter the 2 Service Pistol matches and Paying for the Ammo with just about no chance to win anything after legging out is the main reason its decline.  Only the match winner gets a gun and for a while in was an M1 Grand. Sitting in the shortened awards ceremony most of the Trophies are dedicated to Military shooters that most don't have to pay to shoot, are payed to be there, all expenses payed and provided the Guns and Ammo. Yet the Match was run by the DCM which is now the CMP.
 Don't get me wrong I think highly of the Military shooters, heck my son is one of them!

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by KevinB on Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:59 am

Take it from someone who's been on that stage (for rifle Distinguished), it's worth it and it feels damn good.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Rob Kovach on Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:12 pm

Froneck wrote:I seen someone state that it should be a felony for a 2650 shooter to sign the score card?? Why??? The National Champions for the last 20 yeas at least were 2650 shooters!
It said it should be a felony for a shooter over 2650 to IMPROPERLY sign their scorecard.  I think Joe Pascarella messed that up and lost a national championship a while back and that comment was for a laugh.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:55 pm

Froneck wrote:For those thinking this will make the Distinguished Medal easier to get are dreaming, remember everyone can use the same lighter bullet.
 The really tough match is going to be the .22 Distinguish, I'll bet cut-off will be in the high 280's
 In reading the previous posts I seen someone state that it should be a felony for a 2650 shooter to sign the score card?? Why??? The National Champions for the last 20 yeas at least were 2650 shooters!
 When I Legged out ammo was issued by the box of 50 and Presidents was 2 boxes. Later it was changed to just 30 and 40 rounds, if you had an alibi you were issued only enough to shoot the alibi string. Then TZZ was issued until the Marines discovered it was Machine Gun Ammo and not safe for pistol. I was told it blew up a Marines Ball target pistol that was just built for him by the Armorer.
 I doubt this change will increase participation, they don't realize that paying to enter the 2 Service Pistol matches and Paying for the Ammo with just about no chance to win anything after legging out is the main reason its decline.  Only the match winner gets a gun and for a while in was an M1 Grand. Sitting in the shortened awards ceremony most of the Trophies are dedicated to Military shooters that most don't have to pay to shoot, are payed to be there, all expenses payed and provided the Guns and Ammo. Yet the Match was run by the DCM which is now the CMP.
 Don't get me wrong I think highly of the Military shooters, heck my son is one of them!

I agree with the post, but the only funded team now is the AMU and PWS.  The USCG, USAF, USN are all funded the same way the civilians are, with our paycheck.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by robert84010 on Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:08 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:
Froneck wrote:I seen someone state that it should be a felony for a 2650 shooter to sign the score card?? Why??? The National Champions for the last 20 yeas at least were 2650 shooters!
It said it should be a felony for a shooter over 2650 to IMPROPERLY sign their scorecard.  I think Joe Pascarella messed that up and lost a national championship a while back and that comment was for a laugh.
thanks Rob.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Froneck on Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:46 pm

Not sure where my other post went but I stated I need to learn how to read or clean my glasses Rob
Yes Jay  I've heard other services are on their own dollar but at least the have a trophy dedicated to them and as less and less men of their branch attend Perry the Trophy get easier to get their name on!
 Scuttlebutt has it that the CMP is behind the Electronic target change ( I get the information for a very good source) I've also read in another Blog that Anderson will be come the saviour of pistol competition but I think if he has his way Bulls-Eye will advance to International rules, The .22 Distinguished match is already headed that way. Remember Anderson was an International shooter! The .22 Distinguished match may turn many away, many will think they have a chance and need only to shoot above 260 but at the outset the Camp Perry Cut-Off will be at least in the high 280's. Those that head to Perry to shoot .22 will have their heads handed to them, the scores will be very high and they may never return. If run at local clubs it will be much lower but again once distinguished why continue to shoot it? It will become a Master or High Master Match.


Last edited by Froneck on Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by KevinB on Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:22 pm

Why the assumption that average shooters go to Perry thinking they can win?  Everyone knows it's "the Big Show".  Never saw people at the rifle matches swearing off Perry because they didn't make the cut in the NTI or P100, most are there to be part of it and have a good time.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by jmdavis on Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:32 pm

I agree that 22 will not be easy. But Leg matches are seldom easy and the thing that makes them hard isn't the shooting. It's the stress. The cutoff for any given leg match depends on who is shooting. If I go to a match, shoot well and lose because someone shoots better, I call that part of the game. I am there to shoot my best match. If it's good enough, great. If not, I will try again.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Wobbley on Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:33 pm

If you're not a 2640 or better shooter,  what makes you think that you have much chance of winning (top shooter) at Perry?  In HP I'm a HM shooter, but I am not good enough to win at Perry.  Nothing wrong with my equipment or technique etc.  I just don't have the visual acuity or the fine nuances to compete.  It's just the way it is. I went to Perry to shoot and enjoy myself and meet fine people.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by james r chapman on Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:42 pm

Much like the Grand American in trapshooting, most go for the historic opportunity to just shoot!

If it's your lucky day, it's even better!

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Froneck on Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:13 pm

If everyone goes to Camp Perry for the experience then why is the attendance dwindling? My first trip to Perry was in '82. The night before Ball there were long lines of men signing up for the EIC matches, the line lasted until well past midnight! All the NRA competitors were already signed up, that year there was over 1100 NRA Competitors. I have no idea how many competitors there were for the EIC match but I'll bet it was almost double the NRA count at least. If I recall there were at least  4 relays possibly 5 on all 4 ranges.  Later teams were again on all 4 ranges and 3 relays! Last year there was one relay of teams on 2 ranges! And if my memory is correct 2 relays of NTI and Presidents 100 each on 2 ranges! The night before Ball Camp Perry was Packed and they had a lot more Huts than now. Last year I'm sure there were more NRA competitors than CMP and I didn't see anyone signing up on Ball day though I'm sure there were a few.
 Yes I am one that enjoys Camp Perry I attend the last 33 consecutive years. I too enjoy shooting a match, I'm just saying that the .22 Distinguished match will be extremely difficult to get a led! If you not at least a Master Class shooter you will win nothing, not even Leg Points!

Frank


Last edited by Froneck on Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by james r chapman on Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:22 pm

Can you say , 3-gun, IDPA, etc,...precision is no longer a paramount requirement when the new crowd wants to shoot from 15 feet as many as they can crank off in as few seconds as they can. Then they can get back to tweeting their friends...

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Froneck on Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:35 pm

We have that crowd at our club now too! Shoot the hell out of everything, Target frames are all shot to hell and no one wants to help fix the range afterwards! And they all think they are great shooters even if they do miss that big target completely at 15 feet! I told one shooter they should award extra points if you throw the gun at the target and hit it!

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Wobbley on Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:49 pm

Well, bullseye is hard and requires discipline.  Then you had the never ending drumming in the 80s and on about action shooting games.  Most of these guys and gals are household names.  When was the last time you saw the National Pistol Champion's name in the American Rifleman?

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by LenV on Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:07 pm

I challenged one of local IDPA shoot em up bang bang guys that was shooting at a whopping 15' away. I had certain advantages that it was hard for him to overcome or forgive me for. My gun held lots more rounds, had less recoil and from the results was lots more accurate. I used my staple gun. Laughing

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Rob Kovach on Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:09 pm

Froneck wrote:If you not at least a Master Class shooter you will win nothing, not even Leg Points!
I'll put a dollar that I get my .22 leg at Perry this year!  ...and I'll do it with my ball gun lower.  I'm coming for you, Frank!

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Froneck on Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:27 pm

I'll take that bet! Remember the Leg is the top 10% of all Non Distinguished shooters. No one on the line will be .22 Distinguished so all the 2650 shooters as well as all the 2600 shooters and All the Masters and High Masters will be in the Non Distinguished group.
 I'll take the dollar and buy the first round at the local pub Very Happy


Last edited by Froneck on Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by jmdavis on Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:31 pm

The more that shoot the more legs there will be. I hope that they have integrated the lift into their training.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Froneck on Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:37 pm

Only to 10% of the Non Distinguished Shooters JM

Frank

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

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