New EIC ammo for rules change

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New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Jkvandal on Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:18 pm

First topic message reminder :

So it seems that the ammo has been opened up for the 1911 for EIC competition to any weight metal jacketed bullets...unfortunately this doesn't quite fall into my plans of casting my bullets for the upcoming season.

What options are out there for jacketed ammo that will be a step up for accuracy and recoil from the 230gr for the .45? I'd assume it would be some sort of hollow point bullet between 185-200gr?

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by jmdavis on Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:50 pm

Yep but more non distinguished means more legs. The sooner those guys leg out, the sooner the rest of us will too. Personally I'm hoping for someone like Sanderson,  Bikar,  or one of the Marine corps pistol team to be #1. Or maybe some junior who has been shooting the 22 in the games and leg matches. That would really be something.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Rob Kovach on Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:29 am

I plan on being in the top 50, Frank.  I'm going to win the bet--and you can still buy the first round!

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Froneck on Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:51 am

We will see Rob, I hope you do get a leg but I'll bet there will be at least 50 High Masters in that match and if there are 500 competitors then the top 50 will be shooting High Master Scores.
 Possibly one thing that may have prompted the rules change was  I'm told the Marines were asking to have Beaver tails allowed on service pistols in the EIC matches. Story has it they were buying new guns and only ones available they liked had Beaver tails.  Sound like they were looking at some High End Guns. Marines weren't doing so well in the past few years, as with other services support was dwindling. Could be that getting their butts kicked by the Army got someones attention!
 However my favorite dog in this race is Adam Sokolowski!

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Rob Kovach on Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:18 am

....because beavertails make a gun more accurate. ..
Whenever the Marines get a shooter well trained, the army comes along with their dump truck full of money and steals them.
If the Marines had half of the money the army gets, the army would never win again.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by LenV on Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:42 am

Something to remember. Of the 54 HM's shooting Perry in 2014 only 14 shot HM scores. 23 shot M, 16 shot Ex and 1 shot SS.  I think there might be some room for a couple of non HM to get some 22 points.

Len

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by KevinB on Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:55 am

Anyone can have a good day.  I walked into Perry in 2000 as a service rifle expert, non-distinguished and made the top 3rd of the Presidents 100.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:35 am

Rob Kovach wrote:....because beavertails make a gun more accurate. ..
Whenever the Marines get a shooter well trained, the army comes along with their dump truck full of money and steals them.
If the Marines had half of the money the army gets, the army would never win again.

Or...1/4...1/5...1/6...1/7...about 1/8 would make it equal.

Our Devil Dogs do awfully well, and for a tiny fraction of the personnel and resources Wink 

Not to bring in service pride, but has anyone beat Don Hamilton's score of 2668 at Camp Perry yet?  
It's approaching 50 years and Army still can't beat Navy even with full time shooters.  Kind of like Football I guess. Go Navy!



Army$244.9 billion31.8%
Navy$149.9 billion23.4%excluding Marine Corps
Marine Corps$40.0 billion4%Total Budget taken allotted from Department of Navy
Air Force$170.6 billion22%
Defense Intelligence$80.1 billion[11]3.3%Because of classified nature, budget is an estimate and may not be the actual figure
Defense Wide Joint Activities$118.7 billion15.5%

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by jmdavis on Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:24 pm

It would be nice to examine that book from Hamilton. I wonder what year that page was?

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by john bickar on Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:48 pm

I see what looks like a "1963" under the lucite award.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Ed Hall on Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:12 pm

jmdavis wrote:It would be nice to examine that book from Hamilton. I wonder what year that page was?
There are dates shown over in the match names column, showing some clear dates in '64 and the last in '65.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by jmdavis on Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:51 pm

When I enlarged the photo, I could read it. I believe that 2 friends shot with Hamilton during that time. I know for sure that one was at the Midwinter in Tampa and shot for a Navy Team out of Pensacola. The other shot 3-2600+ in that spring and summer of 1965.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by tierney on Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:29 pm

here is a photo of Don at the Tampa Midwinters in 1989


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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Magnusbullets on Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:35 pm

4.6 titegroup. Shoot 1.5 inch at 50

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Otiso on Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:17 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:....because beavertails make a gun more accurate. ..
Whenever the Marines get a shooter well trained, the army comes along with their dump truck full of money and steals them.
If the Marines had half of the money the army gets, the army would never win again.


The army steals Marines? How does that work exactly? One day they are in the Marines and the next day, they are Army soldiers?

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Froneck on Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:18 pm

A few years ago Hamilton was at Perry with a few of his shooting buddies. They put in a team, not sure of the name, think it was "Over The Hill Gang" They were supposed to return the following year but I don't remember seeing him there. A few of us went out to dinner that evening, those guys had quite a few interesting stories to tell.
 Army gets a Marine shooter after their enlistment is up. Usually they talk to the Team Coach that gets the ball rolling then rather than re-enlist they join the Army

Frank

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by DeweyHales on Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:50 pm

Irons and the lift may not favor most of the Master and HM crowd. 

I think we will see some experts on the list.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Rob Kovach on Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:15 pm

Otiso wrote:The army steals Marines? How does that work exactly? One day they are in the Marines and the next day, they are Army soldiers?
When the Marines are up for re-enlistment, the USMC isn't able to offer any bonuses, but somehow the Army has money available for re-enlistment bonuses and promotions.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Froneck on Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:22 pm

OldMaster65 wrote:Something to remember. Of the 54 HM's shooting Perry in 2014 only 14 shot HM scores. 23 shot M, 16 shot Ex and 1 shot SS.  I think there might be some room for a couple of non HM to get some 22 points.

Len
 I assume your number is the total of all High Masters (Service,Police and Civilian) so that's 37 scores 285 and above now add the Master Class to that. As I mentioned the cut-off will be in the High 280's and remember that's in 22. Therefore a few Master will have a chance at a .22 leg but Expert and below will be almost impossible. When I started going to Perry a 270 wouldn't guarantee a leg in .45 Ball with issued ammo. If they allow local clubs to run the .22 EIC match then all the Distinguished Ball shooters will want to add another Medal and shoot the .22. I'll bet they know that and want the blast of cash it will bring until is slows down like Ball.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by LenV on Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:22 pm

Yes, that was the total number HM's. Going with the 37 number that would still leave 28 more possible legs (656 shooters) Of the 142 Masters that shot none of them fired HM, 20 of them fired Master and 74 fired expert. That would take care of 20 of the legs. Of the 235 Experts that fired only 1 fired Master and 108 fired Expert. That would take out 1 more leg. That would still leave 7 legs to be won by someone shooting Expert scores. That was then, but it shows that it is possible.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Froneck on Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:35 pm

Was that in .22 NMC? Or what match? Ball??

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Rob Kovach on Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:39 pm

Froneck,
Unless you have the 88mph DeLorean and a copy of 2015's match results, please stop trying to predict the outcome of the 2015 match.

It's getting tired.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by LenV on Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:29 am

Froneck wrote:Was that in .22 NMC? Or what match? Ball??
Froneck:
It was for the entire 2700 tournament. It was a little lazy of me just to use the numbers I compiled in a previous post ( General : Camp Perry 2014). I was bored so I figured out how everyone did within their class in 2014. I got bored again so decided to answer the question you posed here. I looked at the 2014 results for just the .22 NMC. It surprised me a little how close it would have been just to use the whole 2700. A couple of things that can't even be guessed at by these results are age of winners (old eyes, steel sights), familiarity with standard pistol and predicting participation levels in 2015. Having said all that. IF we go by 2014 results and participation the top 65 shooters would have consisted of 35 HM, 25 M, 4 Ex and 1 SS. The cut off would have been 290-12x.

All:
Back to the original OP. I was able to test the 185gr TMJ SWC (4.2BE) this weekend and had good results. The pistol ran flawlessly and recoil was very mild. I was only shooting 25 yds so only fired one slow fire then switched to timed fire. Slow fire was ok (90-1) but the timed fire really felt good. I was just working on trigger control and testing function not really caring about score. I glanced at the target between magazines (no scope) and just kept shooting. After the 4th or 5th magazine I decided to just keep shooting until I saw something show up in the white. Sometime in the 8th magazine I put one into the 9 ring that was mostly in the white. That was a good time to quit. Long story short the Speer #4473 might be the perfect choice for the new rules.

Len

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by tierney on Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:24 am

Rob, Froneck does have a point about the high Masters. you can count on your fingers the HM's who have it dialed in and will come out on top.  The rest of us in HM are mostly gone bad in the tooth hard cases who refuse to surrender to old age and/or some dread disease.  However, having said this, the hardball playing field is still just as equal now with most shooting the 185 zero just as much as in the old days when everyone shot brown box ball.  There are no classifications in hardball, plenty of chances for everyone

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Froneck on Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:22 pm

tierney wrote:Rob, Froneck does have a point about the high Masters. you can count on your fingers the HM's who have it dialed in and will come out on top.  The rest of us in HM are mostly gone bad in the tooth hard cases who refuse to surrender to old age and/or some dread disease.  However, having said this, the hardball playing field is still just as equal now with most shooting the 185 zero just as much as in the old days when everyone shot brown box ball.  There are no classifications in hardball, plenty of chances for everyone
I agree, HB will have more opportunity for newer shooters. Most of the distinguished die hard old shooters like me neither add or remove a leg  from a non distinguished shooter but every leg won will remove 9 shooters in the 22 match by one of us long toothed old geezers that still can post a decent 22 score and the same with all those moving up Masters that are shooting good master scores and soon to be HM. As the OldMaster has just calculated the cutoff to be 290 it is in what I said and expect the cut-off to be in the high 280's But that doesn't mean anyone shooting below that should give-up and throw in the towel! The best way up the ladder is to shoot the match  especially at Camp Perry that seems to lower first time shooters scores. My intention in mentioning it was to give the new shooters a notice so that they do not get discouraged if they shoot a good score and fall way short of the Cut-Off. The High cut-off will be temporary. Everyone that does shoot it this year will have a better chance next year.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Rob Kovach on Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:33 pm

Most HMs haven't shot a 22 with irons in years unless they have been shooting international.
I'm going to put my 280 iron sight .22 average out there and look for the upset.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

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