Model 52 barrel damage

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Model 52 barrel damage

Post by rhyno01 on 1/4/2015, 9:39 am

Hey all

During our match yesterday I had 1 round that seemed really hot. I am using 2.8g of BE with a HBWC. There was a strange hole in the target after the hot round. Gun functioned no problem. I have heard that if the bullet separates it can damage the barrel. All I can tell is the barrel is about .002 out of round. It also is even down the barrel but at the chamber end is about .002 smaller.
Is this normal?
Thanks
Royce

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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by Rob Kovach on 1/4/2015, 10:16 am

The damage occurs when the HBWC separates and leaves the hollow base in the barrel and a subsequent bullet hits the obstruction and causes a bulge.

It doesn't sound like you bulged your barrel this time.  I couldn't tell you if the measurements you have are normal though.
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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by rhyno01 on 1/4/2015, 10:49 am

Rob Kovach wrote:The damage occurs when the HBWC separates and leaves the hollow base in the barrel and a subsequent bullet hits the obstruction and causes a bulge.

It doesn't sound like you bulged your barrel this time.  I couldn't tell you if the measurements you have are normal though.

So it sounds like if that happens the bulge is quite obvious?

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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by C.Perkins on 1/4/2015, 11:02 am

Clean the bore and look to see if you see a ring inside.
Use a tight fitting patch and slowly push it through the bore and see if you can feel an area that feels loose at any point and then gets hard again.

If you did not fire another shot after the problem round with a piece of the skirt in the bore then it is most likely fine.

Clarence
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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by Bubba Blaster on 1/4/2015, 11:05 am

Take a cleaning rod with the correct sized jag and slowly push a tight patch thru the barrel from the breech end ,if you have a bulge you will feel a loose spot in the barrel.
Tight...loose....Tight
Got it ?


Somebody beat me to it.

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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by dronning on 1/4/2015, 11:10 am

rhyno01 wrote:
Rob Kovach wrote:The damage occurs when the HBWC separates and leaves the hollow base in the barrel and a subsequent bullet hits the obstruction and causes a bulge.

It doesn't sound like you bulged your barrel this time.  I couldn't tell you if the measurements you have are normal though.

So it sounds like if that happens the bulge is quite obvious?



Not always, sometimes the bulge can be so small you may not be able to see it from the outside.  When you clean the bore with a jag you should be able to feel a skip but if not look down it and if you see a dark ring you probably have a bulge.  Usually this is just past the chamber.

Don't panic yet if it's small enough and in the right spot your 52's accuracy may still be very good.  

- Dave



well 2 of you beat me to it
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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by james r chapman on 1/4/2015, 11:40 am

Does this happen in 52's? I always thought it was more of an issue in revolvers with cylinder throat/gap/forcing cone relationships.
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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by Rob Kovach on 1/4/2015, 11:58 am

It does happen with 52s when the HBWC are pushed sooo fast that the projectile comes apart in such a way that all of the gasses go unobstructed through the skirt and just the bullet tip exits the barrel leaving the skirt behind.  It only happens with incorrectly charged ammo.
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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by AllAces on 1/4/2015, 12:42 pm

I agree with Rob. 2.8 gr of BE is the classic load for an M52. Hotter loads will cause the hollow base skirt to separate. Sometimes the skirt stays in the bore, sometimes it goes down range and can result in a square hole in the target.  Looks like you had a hot load.
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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by rhyno01 on 1/4/2015, 3:09 pm

dronning wrote:
rhyno01 wrote:
Rob Kovach wrote:The damage occurs when the HBWC separates and leaves the hollow base in the barrel and a subsequent bullet hits the obstruction and causes a bulge.

It doesn't sound like you bulged your barrel this time.  I couldn't tell you if the measurements you have are normal though.

So it sounds like if that happens the bulge is quite obvious?



Not always, sometimes the bulge can be so small you may not be able to see it from the outside.  When you clean the bore with a jag you should be able to feel a skip but if not look down it and if you see a dark ring you probably have a bulge.  Usually this is just past the chamber.

Don't panic yet if it's small enough and in the right spot your 52's accuracy may still be very good.  

- Dave



well 2 of you beat me to it

I think I got lucky this time. It would seem the bullet did separate but it all came out of the barrel. I did fire another round after the hot shot and it was normal. I'm kicking myself for not checking after that shot. That wont happen again. I did run a patch through the barrel and it was tight all the way and no black ring.
Thank you all for the help!
Royce

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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by Jerry Keefer on 1/4/2015, 3:25 pm



I think I got lucky this time.  no black ring.
Thank you all for the help!
Royce
That's great, as replacement 52 barrels are almost completely extinct..
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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by beeser on 1/4/2015, 4:33 pm

Maybe a dumb question but is it possible to sleeve a barrel after a bulge is put into it?

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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by GrumpyOldMan on 1/4/2015, 9:23 pm

Semiauto barrels of that type are so skinny I don't believe that sleeving one is within the intersection of technically possible and economically sensible.

Rarity might change the calculations on that, but so long as the thing still holds the X-ring (or whatever is good enough for you), I wouldn't even think about it again.

AND, a "choke" barrel that narrows from breech to muzzle is a good thing. It has even been done deliberately over the past century or so as an accuracy measure. A bore tapering the other direction has the reputation of being impossible to delivber top accuracy.

The out of round by .002 is a bit of a concern, but a single hot round is most unlikely to cause that from end-to-end, probably impossible. If the bullets fit the loose axis, no problem. Some barrel makers intentionally go .0005 undersize and some bullet makers intentionally go .0005 oversize from "nominal" anyway.  Again, if it shoots, don't worry. I know I wouldn't.

My personal theory is that you had a hot round and the HBWC skirt was flared out to whatever odd shape you saw in the target.

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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by Jerry Keefer on 1/4/2015, 11:14 pm

Yes,it can be done,and has been done. As Grumpy said, a lot of work. In bullseye, accuracy is paramount, so I am against stressing the barrel. I would rather make a completely new barrel.
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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by Bubba Blaster on 1/4/2015, 11:51 pm

Jerry Keefer wrote:Yes,it can be done,and has been done. As Grumpy said, a lot of work. In bullseye, accuracy is paramount, so I am against stressing the barrel. I would rather make a completely new barrel.

How much for a new barrel ?  I'm sitting down already ....and the answer is ?  (Drum roll )

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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by dronning on 1/5/2015, 8:25 am

Bubba Blaster wrote:
Jerry Keefer wrote:Yes,it can be done,and has been done. As Grumpy said, a lot of work. In bullseye, accuracy is paramount, so I am against stressing the barrel. I would rather make a completely new barrel.

How much for a new barrel ?  I'm sitting down already ....and the answer is ?  (Drum roll )


Jerry I'd like to know too.  I have a 52 I picked up on a great deal with a slight bulge but it still shoots pretty good.  I'd really like a new barrel.

Dave
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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by Jerry Keefer on 1/5/2015, 9:01 am

Sorry, I am retired except for two shooters.. I have completed my back log, and I have promised to dedicate the rest of what time I have left to them..
I know that writting my experiments, and findings are inticements, but they are only meant to relay what is possible.  Making a barrel is perhaps advanced for some, but it's something any good machinist should be able to do..  There are a few barrels hidden out there.. I have two brand new 52 barrels coming this week.. The shooter bought them years ago, and never used them.. I am only borrowing them for measurement studies..I want to get the camming angles perfect...The barrel I have looks like a beginning machinist made it..although it does function..
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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by kc.crawford.7 on 1/5/2015, 12:20 pm

Jerry, if you ever decide to write a book of all the knowledge you have about gunsmithing, machining, and FIXTURING you could probably retire completely and still take care of your two shooters. Where do I put the deposit for the book? I damn sure would get that one!
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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by Jerry Keefer on 1/5/2015, 1:11 pm

kc.crawford.7 wrote:Jerry, if you ever decide to write a book of all the knowledge you have about gunsmithing, machining, and FIXTURING you could probably retire completely and still take care of your two shooters.  Where do I put the deposit for the book?  I damn sure would get that one!
Thanks, KC
My intention at one time was to write one, and had an offer to have it edited for free.. But, that spark has died...It's a big investment in money and time, initially for a return that is speculative..And, I am running out of both time and money..... I do have a gizzillion pictures on thumb drives..SmileSmile
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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by kc.crawford.7 on 1/5/2015, 1:13 pm

And I collect every one of them that you post. How bout we plan a ride late summer early fall when the weather is nicer?
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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by RJP on 1/5/2015, 8:52 pm

Jerry Keefer wrote:


I think I got lucky this time.  no black ring.
Thank you all for the help!
Royce
That's great, as replacement 52 barrels are almost completely extinct..

Jerry,

Is it feasible to take a new 9mm barrel from a Smith& Wesson Model 952 and rechamber to 38 Spl?

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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by Jerry Keefer on 1/5/2015, 9:59 pm

KC...That sounds good.
RP..I know absolutely nothing about the 952..Never had one in my hands..Sorry I am no help on that one.
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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

Post by GrumpyOldMan on 1/6/2015, 12:24 pm

Jerry and K.C.:

Please accept this as a second offer for free editing when the materials come together.

I did something similar before, on the 1st Edition of "The M14 Rifle, History and Development", by Lee Emerson, who posts over on BattleRifles as "Different".  I'm not always the fastest but I'm pretty good.

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Re: Model 52 barrel damage

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