Question about alibi rules

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Question about alibi rules

Post by orpheoet on 1/12/2015, 7:39 am

I'm not sure where to ask this question... I was denied an alibi yesterday because I "manipulated the gun". I used my shooting hand thumb to try and push the slide the last 1/8th inch forward. The gun was pointed downrange in my usual shooting position. Finger outside of trigger guard. This happened after 3rd shot of timed so I lost 20 points. At no point did I touch the gun with my non shooting hand. I accepted the denial but reading the rules last night I'm confused. Thanks.
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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by dronning on 1/12/2015, 10:07 am

There is conflicting verbiage.
10.7 says nothing about non-shooting hand
".....THE SHOOTER SHALL RAISE NON-SHOOTING HAND AND NOT ATTEMPT TO CLEAR PISTOL UNTIL IT HAS BEEN CLEARED BY A RANGE OFFICIAL...."


10.10a

"....If at any time during Timed or Rapid Fire, if a competitor attempts to clear a malfunction with non-shooting hand they will be denied a re-fire..."



- Dave
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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by Dr.Don on 1/12/2015, 2:09 pm

Whatever the rules actually say, if you attempted to clear it, shooting hand or non-shooting hand or slapping it on the bench or whatever, you bought the results.  I think that is the spirit of the thing .....


Last edited by Dr.Don on 1/12/2015, 2:12 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by orpheoet on 1/12/2015, 4:05 pm

What exactly is one supposed to do in the event of mechanical problem. In plain english. This is what I did.
On the 4th round the slide did not go fully forward by about an 1/8 of an inch.
With my shooting hand thumb I tried to push the slide forward. No dice.
I raised my non shooting hand and waited.
When range officer came over I dropped the magazine, pulled slide back and was in the process of locking slide open.
Range officer said he could not allow an alibi because "You manipulated the firearm, and touched the hammer."
I just don't know where I went wrong.
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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by jmdavis on 1/12/2015, 4:24 pm

Raise your hand and wait for further instructions. Don't do anything until you are told to do it. 

Be happy that you weren't in a Leg Match.
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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by Jon Eulette on 1/12/2015, 4:47 pm

Alibi's are allowed per match. For example; Timed fire match. TF match has (4) 5 shot strings. You are allowed (1) alibi! So if you use (1) of your alibi's by all means rack the slide, clear the jam, whatever....get those extra points. That's why it's important to have a pistol that functions 99% of the time ;p). I have some Aguila ammunition that light strikes like crazy. But I don't have any issues using it because I can normally get through a 900 with only a couple of alibi's. Obviously I wouldn't use it at an important match. But I know when to raise my hand and when to do an immediate action drill. LOL
Jon
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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by Rob Kovach on 1/12/2015, 5:00 pm

If you attempt to clear the pistol AT ALL you are not eligible for an alibi--see 10.7 above.

I don't even lower the pistol because simply the act of changing it's position to allow gravity to act on it in a different angle could clear the pistol.  If there is no malfunction to clear, the shooter might have been seeking an alibi for chicken finger.

I don't do ANYTHING until the range officer commands that I do.
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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by dronning on 1/12/2015, 5:16 pm

orpheoet wrote:What exactly is one supposed to do in the event of mechanical problem........

As jmdavis said:

Stop don't touch the gun with any motion that appears as if your are trying to fix the problem, raise your hand and wait for instructions, anything else and you risk losing your alibi.  Touching the slide with your thumb would be trying to clear the problem.

A little broader perspective:
Part of the alibi rules/process are to make sure things stay safe on the line in the event of a malfunction.  Putting your thumb in back of the slide could be very dangerous.  Like if you were to have a hang fire and you were attempting to recock.  The line judge/safety officer would not know what the malfunction was until he/she talked to you.  So as far as they knew you were acting in an unsafe manner.  This is also why you should wait and not do anything until instructed by the line judge.  I've seen alibi's disallowed because the shooter dropped a mag when the line judge walked up and before they were instructed to do so, a little tough but thems the rules and it was the second time they did it in a match. 

- Dave
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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by Astroimage2002 on 1/12/2015, 6:04 pm

Hypothetical question on this topic. What if you do not intend to take an Alibi string? Is touching your gun with your non shooting hand okay? 
Something like this:
-On the third shot of timed fire string the brass stove pipes
-You pull the slide back to clear the stove pipe and it does clear but you inadvertently rack the slide again and throw out one of your live rounds
-Fire your fifth round, drop the mag and load the fifth and fire it before the target turns.

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by dronning on 1/12/2015, 6:23 pm

It's OK, but if you failed to clear in time all is lost - no alibi.

I was shooting an alibi string for timed fire and had a jam on my 4th round so I had to clear and reload or lose 20 points.  I shot an 8 and a 10 which gave our team the win by 3 points.

This is why I always have a third mag loaded and ready.

- Dave

New shooters especially should not try and clear their guns.  In that brief moment of panic things can become unsafe fast, just take the alibi.  Give yourself the best chance at a good score.  There was a new shooter next to me, I heard his squib load, I saw him rack his slide I turned my head away as he fired his last round, luckily the squib had cleared the barrel.  That could have been a bad situation.
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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by Jon Eulette on 1/12/2015, 7:44 pm

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the command is "with 5 rounds load". Use of another magazine is not legal; not until alibi string of fire. 
Jon
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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by Astroimage2002 on 1/12/2015, 7:53 pm

But re chambering one of the original rounds is okay?

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by jmdavis on 1/12/2015, 8:04 pm

Good question Jon. I have seen something like that happen in a Leg Match. But nothing was said about it.
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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by dronning on 1/12/2015, 8:12 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the command is "with 5 rounds load". Use of another magazine is not legal; not until alibi string of fire. 
Jon

I'd interpret this as loading another magazine is ok.


10.11 Completion of Fire - In the event of a malfunction the competitor may complete the string by manually cocking the pistol, operating the slide or loading additional rounds, provided that the pistol is handled safely and remains pointed downrange at all times.

- Dave
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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by CR10X on 1/12/2015, 9:21 pm

I would have made the same call, but for a different reasoning.  Since the competitor attempted to complete the string (by manipulating the gun, even with the shooting hand).  I would have said the competitor did not get the attempted shot(s) off as allowed by last part of:  

(a) In the event of a defective cartridge (Rule 9.4), disabled
pistol (Rule 9.5), or malfunction (Rule 9.6), before a
string is completed in timed or rapid fire, the competitor
shall be privileged to fire another five shot string, provided
he assumes the “Ready” position and calls the Range Officer
by holding up the non-shooting hand at the end of
the time period. The Range Officer will inspect the pistol,
and may even ask that the pistol be fired, if satisfied that
there is a disabled pistol, defective cartridge, malfunction,
or optical sight failure, will determine the number of unfired
cartridges remaining in the pistol or bullets that have
failed to leave the barrel. If at any time during Timed or
Rapid Fire, if a competitor attempts to clear a malfunction
with non-shooting hand they will be denied a re-fire. The
competitor will then fire another complete five shot string
on the same target. The competitor may attempt to complete
firing per Rule 10.11. 


10.11 Completion of Fire - In the event of a malfunction the
competitor may complete the string by manually cocking the pistol,
operating the slide or loading additional rounds, provided that
the pistol is handled safely and remains pointed downrange at all
times. 

It may not be exactly clear but somewhere there has to be a decision point that either the shooter will do nothing and therefore seek to  have an alibi declared for a refire string; or the the shooter will be attempting to complete the string and forfeit the option of an alibi.  We would find it difficult to administer and referee a match to allow manipulation by any means and still have the possibility of an alibi.

By attempting to complete firing, it appears that the competitor made the decision, at that very instant, not to claim an alibi for that malfunction.

Let the discussion continue.....

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by sixftunda on 1/14/2015, 6:06 am

Orpheoet,

I was the man who scored your targets that day. 

The person running the line was well within the rules to do what he did.  When I was a new shooter I did something similar to you.  The official gave me the benefit of the doubt and allowed the alibi, but with a stern warning.  I had a failure in the same match and did the same thing by reflex and when I turned around he was watching me and shaking his head no.  I learned the hard way and lost 50 points but it was a good lesson to learn that day. 

My advice is to NEVER touch your gun in a malfunction at any time.  Raise your off hand.  We all have the occasional alibi.

  However, if you are having multiple alibis within an individual match, there are other problems and trying to clear them is not the ultimate solution.  Have another person look at your gun and your ammo before you leave that day.  When you get home, detail strip and clean your gun.  If its CF or .45, check your spring weight also.  I have taken a whole brick of .22 ammo and relegated it to practice because even after inspecting my weapon I had alibis from the box.  Maybe it was dropped in shipment.   

I look forward to shooting with you again.  I'm sure you will be a Sharpshooter or better before Perry this year.
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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by orpheoet on 1/19/2015, 9:46 pm

Thanks for the replies. I have a lot to learn! When I first stared reloading not long after getting into bullseye I had a lot of issues with my pistol functioning so I got in the habit of trying to quickly get the gun functioning. Now it rarely happens but the bad habit has carried over. From now on i don't do anything but raise my hand.
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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by Jack H on 1/19/2015, 11:25 pm

The Rule 10.11 part about loading additional rounds I think came about because I did just that when I had a misfire during my rapid fire alibi string.  I always keep another magazine loaded at the ready.  In the 10 seconds I inserted a second 5 round magazine in a 208s and got all my shots off, ON target too. I might have even fired extra shots.  I can't swear to the total round count.  So we took the low ten.   I have done this twice.  There was quite a discussion on the matter several years ago.  This was in a no count league match so don't go all knotted undies.
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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by CR10X on 1/21/2015, 8:22 pm

Yes, you may attempt to complete the refire string in accordance with 10.11 (and I know because I was involved in the initial request to clarify and add this rule).

However, please be aware of the following:

9.25 Cross Fires and Excessive Hits - No competitor will deliberately
fire on the wrong target nor fire more than the required
number of shots, including hits on some other competitor’s target
and misses.

and

18.15 Responsibility - It shall be the competitor’s responsibility:
(a) That all equipment meets all rules and match specifications
in any match in which that equipment is to be used.
(b) That the competitor’s position conforms to the rules.
(c) That the competitor has full knowledge of the rules under
which the match is fired.
(d) That after due warning of any infraction of existing rules,
that the competitor shall understand that a repetition thereof
shall be the subject of disqualification for that match or
tournament.
(e) That when targets are framed by the competitor, it is the
competitor’s responsibility to frame the correct target for
the specific match and distance. (See Rule l4.7(b)).
(f) To insure that the target is not altered intentionally or with
special marks which will be beneficial in any way. Shots
fired on such targets will not be scored.
(g) When targets are framed (mounted) by persons other than
the competitors framing their own targets, competitors
must be given the opportunity to observe their assigned
target and verify it is clean and of the correct type before
the command to load is given.


So please be careful when completing firing on a refire using 10.11.  Proceed only for the firing of the 5 shot string, or risk not participating for the rest of the match.

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by Jack H on 1/21/2015, 11:28 pm

I would not mind that part of 10.11 going away.  Hate saying it this way but I would not want a noob or an idiot doing the reload during a RF string.
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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by CR10X on 1/22/2015, 6:47 pm

The problem with not having 10.11 is that the competitor will  be charged for all 5 rounds to be fired in the refire string even if they do not get them off. That is unlike the string where the alibi occurred where only the shots fired counted. Not having the ability to try and complete the string in a safe manner will guarantee loss of those shots which would potentially count against the competitors score.  

In addition, this also clarifies what a shooter can attempt to complete strings if they choose not to take an alibi.  The rules were silent on this prior to the addition. 

In any event,  just because the competitor can do something does not mean they should. Which is what all the advise has been about for new shooters.

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by mikemyers on 7/31/2017, 4:08 pm

Yesterday was my second Match.  The first was over a year ago.  As we were getting into rapid fire, one bullet from my magazine didn't load properly, and the slide put a dent in that round, leaving it "stuck" in place..  

I tried to get the magazine out, which was difficult because everything was jammed, then raised my hand and say "me" when they were asking for any alibi's for that round.  This is shooting two handed, so no issue with using my left hand.

My question here is what is the shooter supposed to do?  From what I read above, the appropriate thing is to do nothing, hold your gun in your hand and raise the other hand to have one of the people in charge come over and see what the problem is/was.  I did get the "alibi", and also an experience I won't forget.

Force of habit is to try to fix a problem, and get in the shots.  I had wanted to remove the magazine, remove the damaged round, put in my "extra" magazine that was already loaded with 5 rounds.  From what I've read here, that was not the right thing to do.

(I should add that this gun, S&W 41) had been working flawlessly with CCI ammo for the past four weeks, and when thinking of cleaning it before the Match, I decided I didn't want to mess with anything.  From now on, I'll clean a day or two before the Match.  I also read about adding a drop of oil on the top round of a magazine you've just loaded.  Sounded good to me, but I wanted to try this on a practice day to make sure it worked as described.  I got flustered by the experience, but I'll know more the next time it happens.)
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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/31/2017, 7:00 pm

mikemyers wrote:Yesterday was my second Match.  The first was over a year ago.  As we were getting into rapid fire, one bullet from my magazine didn't load properly, and the slide put a dent in that round, leaving it "stuck" in place..  

I tried to get the magazine out, which was difficult because everything was jammed, then raised my hand and say "me" when they were asking for any alibi's for that round.  This is shooting two handed, so no issue with using my left hand.

My question here is what is the shooter supposed to do?  From what I read above, the appropriate thing is to do nothing, hold your gun in your hand and raise the other hand to have one of the people in charge come over and see what the problem is/was.  I did get the "alibi", and also an experience I won't forget.

Force of habit is to try to fix a problem, and get in the shots.  I had wanted to remove the magazine, remove the damaged round, put in my "extra" magazine that was already loaded with 5 rounds.  From what I've read here, that was not the right thing to do.

(I should add that this gun, S&W 41) had been working flawlessly with CCI ammo for the past four weeks, and when thinking of cleaning it before the Match, I decided I didn't want to mess with anything.  From now on, I'll clean a day or two before the Match.  I also read about adding a drop of oil on the top round of a magazine you've just loaded.  Sounded good to me, but I wanted to try this on a practice day to make sure it worked as described.  I got flustered by the experience, but I'll know more the next time it happens.)

You came away with a good learning experience at a minimum. You are correct in that you should keep it pointed in a safe direction and raise your non shooting hand and get the alibi approved. Also be aware that you get 1 alibi per match, for example the NMC if you take the alibi in say timed fire and you have a jam or something in rapid you don't get another alibi you better try and get those shots off. 

I've heard the oil on first round trick but never tried it, not sure what that would do to pressures. Maybe one of the gunsmiths can jump in here.
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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by joy2shoot on 7/31/2017, 9:33 pm

mikemyers wrote:(I should add that this gun, S&W 41) had been working flawlessly with CCI ammo for the past four weeks, and when thinking of cleaning it before the Match, I decided I didn't want to mess with anything.  From now on, I'll clean a day or two before the Match.  I also read about adding a drop of oil on the top round of a magazine you've just loaded.  Sounded good to me, but I wanted to try this on a practice day to make sure it worked as described.  I got flustered by the experience, but I'll know more the next time it happens.)

When I first started shooting, I was also told about the drop of oil on the top round in the magazine.  So I started doing that with my Model 41.  The only thing that accomplished was to put a lot of oil in the chamber where dirt started to accumulate.  So I stopped doing it.  The frequency of issues with loading, firing, extracting, ejecting did not go up when I stopped doing the oil trick.  (p.s. A number of gun owner's manuals I have say to never put oil on a cartridge.)

However, with my Model 41, after I clean it, it has function issues.  I have to put at least 20 rounds through it before it starts to function properly.

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by LenV on 7/31/2017, 11:54 pm

Understanding the how and why of placing a drop of oil on the top round in your 41. I don't know how you clean your 41 Joytoshoot but this might help you also. The bolt on a 41 needs oil on the underside. Placing a drop of oil on the top round will keep the bolt wet but has other adverse effects. Cleaning your 41 can clean the oil off the bolt and also cause problems till any oil you put on the hammer migrates to the bolt. My solution is to put a thin film of oil on the bolt during cleaning and during shooting drop a small drop onto the bolt by turning pistol over and dropping thru pistol straight onto bolt. This accomplishes what you were doing by dropping oil on magazine without the oil getting into chamber. Over oiled for clarity  Smile

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