Question about alibi rules

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Question about alibi rules

Post by orpheoet on Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:39 am

I'm not sure where to ask this question... I was denied an alibi yesterday because I "manipulated the gun". I used my shooting hand thumb to try and push the slide the last 1/8th inch forward. The gun was pointed downrange in my usual shooting position. Finger outside of trigger guard. This happened after 3rd shot of timed so I lost 20 points. At no point did I touch the gun with my non shooting hand. I accepted the denial but reading the rules last night I'm confused. Thanks.

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by dronning on Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:07 pm

There is conflicting verbiage.
10.7 says nothing about non-shooting hand
".....THE SHOOTER SHALL RAISE NON-SHOOTING HAND AND NOT ATTEMPT TO CLEAR PISTOL UNTIL IT HAS BEEN CLEARED BY A RANGE OFFICIAL...."


10.10a

"....If at any time during Timed or Rapid Fire, if a competitor attempts to clear a malfunction with non-shooting hand they will be denied a re-fire..."



- Dave

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by Dr.Don on Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:09 pm

Whatever the rules actually say, if you attempted to clear it, shooting hand or non-shooting hand or slapping it on the bench or whatever, you bought the results.  I think that is the spirit of the thing .....


Last edited by Dr.Don on Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:12 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by orpheoet on Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:05 pm

What exactly is one supposed to do in the event of mechanical problem. In plain english. This is what I did.
On the 4th round the slide did not go fully forward by about an 1/8 of an inch.
With my shooting hand thumb I tried to push the slide forward. No dice.
I raised my non shooting hand and waited.
When range officer came over I dropped the magazine, pulled slide back and was in the process of locking slide open.
Range officer said he could not allow an alibi because "You manipulated the firearm, and touched the hammer."
I just don't know where I went wrong.

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by jmdavis on Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:24 pm

Raise your hand and wait for further instructions. Don't do anything until you are told to do it. 

Be happy that you weren't in a Leg Match.

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by Jon Eulette on Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:47 pm

Alibi's are allowed per match. For example; Timed fire match. TF match has (4) 5 shot strings. You are allowed (1) alibi! So if you use (1) of your alibi's by all means rack the slide, clear the jam, whatever....get those extra points. That's why it's important to have a pistol that functions 99% of the time ;p). I have some Aguila ammunition that light strikes like crazy. But I don't have any issues using it because I can normally get through a 900 with only a couple of alibi's. Obviously I wouldn't use it at an important match. But I know when to raise my hand and when to do an immediate action drill. LOL
Jon

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by Rob Kovach on Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:00 pm

If you attempt to clear the pistol AT ALL you are not eligible for an alibi--see 10.7 above.

I don't even lower the pistol because simply the act of changing it's position to allow gravity to act on it in a different angle could clear the pistol.  If there is no malfunction to clear, the shooter might have been seeking an alibi for chicken finger.

I don't do ANYTHING until the range officer commands that I do.

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by dronning on Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:16 pm

orpheoet wrote:What exactly is one supposed to do in the event of mechanical problem........

As jmdavis said:

Stop don't touch the gun with any motion that appears as if your are trying to fix the problem, raise your hand and wait for instructions, anything else and you risk losing your alibi.  Touching the slide with your thumb would be trying to clear the problem.

A little broader perspective:
Part of the alibi rules/process are to make sure things stay safe on the line in the event of a malfunction.  Putting your thumb in back of the slide could be very dangerous.  Like if you were to have a hang fire and you were attempting to recock.  The line judge/safety officer would not know what the malfunction was until he/she talked to you.  So as far as they knew you were acting in an unsafe manner.  This is also why you should wait and not do anything until instructed by the line judge.  I've seen alibi's disallowed because the shooter dropped a mag when the line judge walked up and before they were instructed to do so, a little tough but thems the rules and it was the second time they did it in a match. 

- Dave

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by Astroimage2002 on Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:04 pm

Hypothetical question on this topic. What if you do not intend to take an Alibi string? Is touching your gun with your non shooting hand okay? 
Something like this:
-On the third shot of timed fire string the brass stove pipes
-You pull the slide back to clear the stove pipe and it does clear but you inadvertently rack the slide again and throw out one of your live rounds
-Fire your fifth round, drop the mag and load the fifth and fire it before the target turns.

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by dronning on Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:23 pm

It's OK, but if you failed to clear in time all is lost - no alibi.

I was shooting an alibi string for timed fire and had a jam on my 4th round so I had to clear and reload or lose 20 points.  I shot an 8 and a 10 which gave our team the win by 3 points.

This is why I always have a third mag loaded and ready.

- Dave

New shooters especially should not try and clear their guns.  In that brief moment of panic things can become unsafe fast, just take the alibi.  Give yourself the best chance at a good score.  There was a new shooter next to me, I heard his squib load, I saw him rack his slide I turned my head away as he fired his last round, luckily the squib had cleared the barrel.  That could have been a bad situation.

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by Jon Eulette on Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:44 pm

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the command is "with 5 rounds load". Use of another magazine is not legal; not until alibi string of fire. 
Jon

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by Astroimage2002 on Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:53 pm

But re chambering one of the original rounds is okay?

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by jmdavis on Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:04 pm

Good question Jon. I have seen something like that happen in a Leg Match. But nothing was said about it.

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by dronning on Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:12 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the command is "with 5 rounds load". Use of another magazine is not legal; not until alibi string of fire. 
Jon

I'd interpret this as loading another magazine is ok.


10.11 Completion of Fire - In the event of a malfunction the competitor may complete the string by manually cocking the pistol, operating the slide or loading additional rounds, provided that the pistol is handled safely and remains pointed downrange at all times.

- Dave

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by CR10X on Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:21 pm

I would have made the same call, but for a different reasoning.  Since the competitor attempted to complete the string (by manipulating the gun, even with the shooting hand).  I would have said the competitor did not get the attempted shot(s) off as allowed by last part of:  

(a) In the event of a defective cartridge (Rule 9.4), disabled
pistol (Rule 9.5), or malfunction (Rule 9.6), before a
string is completed in timed or rapid fire, the competitor
shall be privileged to fire another five shot string, provided
he assumes the “Ready” position and calls the Range Officer
by holding up the non-shooting hand at the end of
the time period. The Range Officer will inspect the pistol,
and may even ask that the pistol be fired, if satisfied that
there is a disabled pistol, defective cartridge, malfunction,
or optical sight failure, will determine the number of unfired
cartridges remaining in the pistol or bullets that have
failed to leave the barrel. If at any time during Timed or
Rapid Fire, if a competitor attempts to clear a malfunction
with non-shooting hand they will be denied a re-fire. The
competitor will then fire another complete five shot string
on the same target. The competitor may attempt to complete
firing per Rule 10.11. 


10.11 Completion of Fire - In the event of a malfunction the
competitor may complete the string by manually cocking the pistol,
operating the slide or loading additional rounds, provided that
the pistol is handled safely and remains pointed downrange at all
times. 

It may not be exactly clear but somewhere there has to be a decision point that either the shooter will do nothing and therefore seek to  have an alibi declared for a refire string; or the the shooter will be attempting to complete the string and forfeit the option of an alibi.  We would find it difficult to administer and referee a match to allow manipulation by any means and still have the possibility of an alibi.

By attempting to complete firing, it appears that the competitor made the decision, at that very instant, not to claim an alibi for that malfunction.

Let the discussion continue.....

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by sixftunda on Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:06 am

Orpheoet,

I was the man who scored your targets that day. 

The person running the line was well within the rules to do what he did.  When I was a new shooter I did something similar to you.  The official gave me the benefit of the doubt and allowed the alibi, but with a stern warning.  I had a failure in the same match and did the same thing by reflex and when I turned around he was watching me and shaking his head no.  I learned the hard way and lost 50 points but it was a good lesson to learn that day. 

My advice is to NEVER touch your gun in a malfunction at any time.  Raise your off hand.  We all have the occasional alibi.

  However, if you are having multiple alibis within an individual match, there are other problems and trying to clear them is not the ultimate solution.  Have another person look at your gun and your ammo before you leave that day.  When you get home, detail strip and clean your gun.  If its CF or .45, check your spring weight also.  I have taken a whole brick of .22 ammo and relegated it to practice because even after inspecting my weapon I had alibis from the box.  Maybe it was dropped in shipment.   

I look forward to shooting with you again.  I'm sure you will be a Sharpshooter or better before Perry this year.

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by orpheoet on Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:46 pm

Thanks for the replies. I have a lot to learn! When I first stared reloading not long after getting into bullseye I had a lot of issues with my pistol functioning so I got in the habit of trying to quickly get the gun functioning. Now it rarely happens but the bad habit has carried over. From now on i don't do anything but raise my hand.

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by Jack H on Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:25 am

The Rule 10.11 part about loading additional rounds I think came about because I did just that when I had a misfire during my rapid fire alibi string.  I always keep another magazine loaded at the ready.  In the 10 seconds I inserted a second 5 round magazine in a 208s and got all my shots off, ON target too. I might have even fired extra shots.  I can't swear to the total round count.  So we took the low ten.   I have done this twice.  There was quite a discussion on the matter several years ago.  This was in a no count league match so don't go all knotted undies.

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by CR10X on Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:22 pm

Yes, you may attempt to complete the refire string in accordance with 10.11 (and I know because I was involved in the initial request to clarify and add this rule).

However, please be aware of the following:

9.25 Cross Fires and Excessive Hits - No competitor will deliberately
fire on the wrong target nor fire more than the required
number of shots, including hits on some other competitor’s target
and misses.

and

18.15 Responsibility - It shall be the competitor’s responsibility:
(a) That all equipment meets all rules and match specifications
in any match in which that equipment is to be used.
(b) That the competitor’s position conforms to the rules.
(c) That the competitor has full knowledge of the rules under
which the match is fired.
(d) That after due warning of any infraction of existing rules,
that the competitor shall understand that a repetition thereof
shall be the subject of disqualification for that match or
tournament.
(e) That when targets are framed by the competitor, it is the
competitor’s responsibility to frame the correct target for
the specific match and distance. (See Rule l4.7(b)).
(f) To insure that the target is not altered intentionally or with
special marks which will be beneficial in any way. Shots
fired on such targets will not be scored.
(g) When targets are framed (mounted) by persons other than
the competitors framing their own targets, competitors
must be given the opportunity to observe their assigned
target and verify it is clean and of the correct type before
the command to load is given.


So please be careful when completing firing on a refire using 10.11.  Proceed only for the firing of the 5 shot string, or risk not participating for the rest of the match.

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by Jack H on Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:28 am

I would not mind that part of 10.11 going away.  Hate saying it this way but I would not want a noob or an idiot doing the reload during a RF string.

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Re: Question about alibi rules

Post by CR10X on Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:47 pm

The problem with not having 10.11 is that the competitor will  be charged for all 5 rounds to be fired in the refire string even if they do not get them off. That is unlike the string where the alibi occurred where only the shots fired counted. Not having the ability to try and complete the string in a safe manner will guarantee loss of those shots which would potentially count against the competitors score.  

In addition, this also clarifies what a shooter can attempt to complete strings if they choose not to take an alibi.  The rules were silent on this prior to the addition. 

In any event,  just because the competitor can do something does not mean they should. Which is what all the advise has been about for new shooters.

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