New Competitors’ Committee

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New Competitors’ Committee

Post by tbrong on 1/14/2015, 1:27 pm

First topic message reminder :

I’d like to address all my friends who shoot bullseye pistol.
 
The past eight months have had several pivotal moments unique to our sport. From this past July to the present, the Competitions Division of the NRA has attempted several major initiatives, for the sport and the National Matches. Some of which perplexed a large portion of our community.
 
It’s unclear what the NRA’s goals have been over the past few months. What arrived in the wake of their initiatives generated what many perceived as little more than machinations on the part of the Association.  Unintentional intrigue or possibly careless execution from our governing body has caused many competitors to express their outrage and lack of confidence. Those concerns were openly made in public media, such as the Bullseye-L Forum and Facebook. It has reminded many of us something we all suspected for a long time: Declining participation is far worse than most of us would have expected.

As such, these circumstances place our sport in peril. It’s rich history and traditions could potentially be severely damaged or lost.
 
I and several others, who have great respect for our sport, have taken the position the NRA needs feedback and guidance from the competitors. Currently there is no such process or mechanism in place. Keep in mind I’m not referring to individual communications, but one that is collective.

I’m suggesting that we organize a committee that would represent the desires and interests of our community in the form of a single voice directed at the Association. I believe that we as competitors can assist the Association in overcoming some of these ongoing issues.

The following are some of the recently pronounced but long-term issues that appear to be either unresolved or neglected:


• The absence of commercial sponsorship at local matches and the National Matches
• Currently there is no branding or national marketing program to recruit new participants
• The NRA’s current lack of operational support for registered matches 
• Several individuals have openly called for us to castoff the NRA and form our own governing body
• The status of electronic targets at the National Matches


In essence, I think it would be wise for us to have our representation based upon regional areas of the country.
 
The following individuals have graciously volunteered to help represent us: Phil Hemphill will represent the Deep South; Brian Zins will represent the Mid-West; Rob Kovach for the Great Lakes Region; Frank Greco and me for the Mid-Atlantic; and John Zurek for the South West.

Additional volunteers for committee members are needed to represent the Mountain States, West Coast and New England regions.

Committee members will be required to reach out to local bullseye shooters to determine their temperament on various issues that relate to the sport. They may be called upon from time to time, to meet with officials of the NRA. And as well, the committee might reach out to the shooting community for assistance in advancing the community’s goals and desires.

The primary purpose of the committee is fairly obvious. Competitors are the sport, and their input for its future direction and scope should have high priority.

Should you have a desire to participate as a member of the committee, please contact me directly by email at: b754020@aol.com

Once the committee is adequately formed and prepared to work, routine updates will be posted on the Bullseye-L Forum.
 



Tony Brong

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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by dronning on 1/19/2015, 6:51 pm

Jack H wrote:
So then why does Action Pistol seem to get the big money sponsors?  Not to mention the professional shooters in the various action venues.
I did hear that Cowboy shoots are kind of losing their draw.  (Draw.  Ha ha)
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Jack H on 1/19/2015, 6:55 pm

dronning wrote:
Jack H wrote:
So then why does Action Pistol seem to get the big money sponsors?  Not to mention the professional shooters in the various action venues.
I did hear that Cowboy shoots are kind of losing their draw.  (Draw.  Ha ha)
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Not mainstream network TV.  There has to be more to it than that.
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by DeweyHales on 1/19/2015, 7:31 pm

Schaumannk wrote:A lot of what you posted was opinion.   Time it takes to shoot a match at Camp Perry has to include travel time and money to get there for any kind of valid comparison.  

By the time you sit in the ready area through two relays to shoot both the P100 and the EIC and the team, it takes the whole day.  Not much  different than rifle.  (Most of the rifle match, as I understand the format, is spent manning the pits, and scoring, not actually shooting)
 That's just it. Shooting the pistol events is a morning for both together. Rifle for these events is two 10-12 hour days. Pistol at Perry takes very little time on the line, and shooting every match available takes very few days. For rifle you've got NRA HP, CMP games, NTI, P100, mid, and long range. It takes weeks. People pick a small portion normally to attend. 

With rifle, P100 is the draw at Perry.  With Pistol, the NRA match is the draw. The numbers I posted prove that. It's not opinion. 

Travel, expenses, and waiting are sunk costs for either rifle or pistol.

Pit service and scoring in rifle is very intensive. You must maintain concentration or you will mess up the shooter. Scoring in pistol is mindless by comparison. Pit service can be grueling. It's manual labor separated by tedious staring waiting for a shot. When the shot comes, you need to lower the target, score, mark, repair, and raise in 10-15 seconds to be a good competitor. 

The service rifle has won recent national championships. I'd be interested to know when the last time a service pistol won a championship. 

Rifle at Perry trumps pistol at Perry the way pistol trumps Bianchi. HP is a feeder of Mid range and long range. The reason I point these things out is that it is very difficult to compare NRA pistol and rifle at Perry as anything other than potentially very misleading. 

The biggest growth potential for pistol at Perry is to have it close to the Rifle P100 day.
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by DeweyHales on 1/19/2015, 7:42 pm

MidwayUSA is a large Bianchi sponsor. The competition is in their "backyard."  NRA association with the event isn't very old.
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by dronning on 1/19/2015, 7:44 pm

Jack H wrote:
dronning wrote:
Jack H wrote:
So then why does Action Pistol seem to get the big money sponsors?  Not to mention the professional shooters in the various action venues.
I did hear that Cowboy shoots are kind of losing their draw.  (Draw.  Ha ha)
Jack H

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Not mainstream network TV.  There has to be more to it than that.

If it were mainstream TV, the sponsors would be paying 100K for minimal billing. MidwayUSA got Title billing for approx. $65K.

The one thing about the audience for these telecasts, almost 100% of the viewers are potential customers. Usually these events are broadcast multiple times over the year so it's pretty good exposure for the $.
http://bianchicup.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/bianchi/2015WebBianchiProgramGuide.pdf

- Dave


Last edited by dronning on 1/19/2015, 7:50 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarity)
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Guest on 1/19/2015, 10:14 pm

As far as sponsors go you have to have a true partnership.  You have to talk, and LISTEN, to what potential sponsors are looking for.  Obviously they are looking to increase their revenue and/or improve their image with customers and potential customers.  You cannot just ask for sponsor fees/donated gear.  You have to find out what sponsors need and deliver.  For example you want coverage (internet videos, local papers, tv coverage, sports shows etc.) but you have to sell the media on what they will get out of it...more viewers.  It sounds complex, but it really is not.  For example you could start with Community Access TV, they are starved for content.  You have to develop relationships and true partnerships, basically treat sponsors as you would want to be treated.  If you do it correctly you can grow quickly.

Chip

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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Rob Kovach on 1/20/2015, 6:55 am

"Jack H wrote: So then why does Action Pistol seem to get the big money sponsors?"

Sponsorships are very labor intensive. Usually the people who do the work to secure the sponsors choose where the proceeds are used. One of my visions for the committee is to secure those sponsorships for bullseye.
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by farmboy on 1/20/2015, 7:39 am

It might be a good idea to have someone on the committee that has marketing and branding experience, if available. If no one is available hopefully the committee can consult with someone that does have the experience. IMHO  Probably just stating the obvious.
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Guest on 1/20/2015, 12:10 pm

At the beginning, the national championship was determined with the NMC courses of fire. Now it has turned into a marathon, firing 270 rounds.
I asked two people at our evening league why they didn't attend local matches. They stated they had families and could not take the whole day off. If the match was half day, they would attend.
I would be happy to have matches with SF, TF, and RF only. The NMC would be for team matches. Then, I would not spend all day at the range, and money saved on ammo could be spent for fuel to attend more matches. Possibly more people would attend to shoot, rather than not attend the current marathon.

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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Rob Kovach on 1/20/2015, 12:25 pm

Thanks for that feedback.  In Wisconsin, there are more 1800 1/2 day matches being conducted which addresses your concerns.  We are seeing good participation in the summers here with that model.

I have also considered conducting matches with 4 open 900s/day with the participants choosing what caliber and how many they would like to shoot.  This format would allow new shooters to log all 360 shots for their classification.

One idea I had to boost participation at Camp Perry was to offer the 2700 in 1 day on range #1 for shooters that couldn't spare the time required for the full program.  Because that shooter would not be subject to the same conditions as the other competitors, I would say that such a competitor could not compete for any awards or the national championship, but would still be shown on the match results.  This idea has not been vetted or presented--it's just in the idea stage right now.

Most competitors that I have spoken to like the National Match program at Camp Perry so I would advocate that it stays mostly the same for now.

Again, these ideas and suggestions for what the committee should do to promote our sport are important and we are looking for them here.
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by dronning on 1/20/2015, 12:55 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:
One idea I had to boost participation at Camp Perry was to offer the 2700 in 1 day on range #1 for shooters that couldn't spare the time required for the full program.  Because that shooter would not be subject to the same conditions as the other competitors, I would say that such a competitor could not compete for any awards or the national championship, but would still be shown on the match results.  This idea has not been vetted or presented--it's just in the idea stage right now.

I'd disagree with the 1 day 2700 as not being eligible, shooting 3 separate 900's is much easier that a 2700 in one day. Yes weather could be a factor but so is fatigue. Plus who knows, the worst weather could be on a day someone shoots a complete 2700 if they shoot a record score it wouldn't count. Doesn't sound right, why would I take the risk?

- Dave


Last edited by dronning on 1/20/2015, 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarity)
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Rob Kovach on 1/20/2015, 1:45 pm

You wouldn't want to create a means for people to shoot their whole Championship match on Tuesday because the forecast was poor for the rest of the week.  The shooter would still be eligible for a record because it's still a sanctioned match, but it wouldn't be for the national match.  There should be a way for the top shooters to be excluded from the program.  My idea would be for people who otherwise would have to stay home because they couldn't take the whole week off.  I'm not really interested in pushing this idea--any negative feedback would encourage me to drop the idea all together.
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by LenV on 1/20/2015, 2:01 pm

My .02.  I would show up for one day if I could shoot just the 4 extra matches. EIC, EIC .22, Reeves and DSR. Throw in making the DSR count at the Nationals without shooting in the 2700. Perfect.

Len
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by dstates on 1/20/2015, 2:38 pm

I'd like to show up and shoot a 2700 in one day and then EIC matches the next (or vice versa).  Taking a week off is hard to justify with a wife and two busy kids at home (soccer, baseball, swimming, etc.).  I would think a one day 2700 is just as valid as three days.  Don't allow walkup registration for it and the weather is a crapshoot like the rest of the week.

If you are not shooting on a team, you show up and shoot for ~2 hours a day for 5 days.  I know a lot of people like the experience, but those of us with limited vacation days and busy family life still want to shoot.  I didn't go last year because I couldn't justify 5 days of vacation and 5 nights in hotel. 

I've said this on the forum before and was told that I must not be committed enough by one of the older guys, that is BS.  I love shooting Bullseye/Conventional Pistol/Precision Pistol.  But we can't all be retired.  If you want to get us mid career guys to show up, make it take fewer days time (and I'm not for e-targets, so don't think I am suggesting that).

Doug

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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Al on 1/20/2015, 3:58 pm

Doug has a very valid point.  I'm beyond the season of kids at home (youngest is now 28), and really didn't get the BE addiction until he was a senior in high school.  But if I had young ones at home I'd be in the same boat.  I can see having a one day 2700 for those with other commitments and little time, but also those in that situation must be open minded enough to admit that their "2700" might fall on the best day or the worst day and live with the results.  I think the fatigue factor in a one day 2700, might equal the weather change possibilities.  It would for me at least.  If we want to increase the numbers attending, it may be something to look at. 


For me,  I don't go there to win, it would take new shoulders, knees, and ankles to even begin to think in that direction.  I really enjoy the time spent rubbing shoulders with 600+ like minded precision shooters and swapping ideas and relaxing.  After all, this is my vacation. 

I've always shot the team matches so my afternoons are occupied and I love being able to sit in the back & just watch shooters and their styles.  Let's not even bring up the commercial row candy stores. 

I sympathize with you Doug, as I'm not that far removed from where you're at now.  I also don't have the solution so I'm no help there.  Better minds than mine will have to address any solution.


I really hope you have the chance to attend, sooner rather than later.  It's addicting and no one (attending) complains about the addiction.

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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Rob Kovach on 1/20/2015, 4:49 pm

I really like the idea that same day registrations would not be allowed for such a match.  It might even be effective to require a 2-3week pre-registration commitment to get on the special 1 day 2700 roster.
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Rob Kovach on 1/20/2015, 4:50 pm

How about some other ideas for the Committee to work with?
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Guest on 1/20/2015, 4:52 pm

I beleive in small changes. Starting with getting away from marathon shooting(2700 matches), and getting closer to what was first shot at the nationals for the first 20 years - NMC. Shooting SF, TF, and RF for each gun would be sufficent to establish a champion. Save the NMC for team matches. SF, TF, and RF would also take less time, thus the Harry Reeves could be shot after the .22, and DR could each be shot after the CF match, and the Service Pistol warm up match could be shot after the .45 match-making it a true warm up for the next day (CMP service pistol matches). This would eliminate one full day from the Nationals for us working stiffs.

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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Rob Kovach on 1/20/2015, 5:11 pm

What about awards?  What do you shooters want to see for awards?
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by sixftunda on 1/20/2015, 6:30 pm

Real awards for class winners that are awarded at the awards ceremony.
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Guest on 1/20/2015, 8:46 pm

Another idea that has been big success in ATA sanctioned Trap tournaments is allowing shooters to enter a Lewis Class event.  Without getting into details Lewis class gives cash awards to various places depending upon all scores.  So the first place wins but the other winners can have scores that range from Sharpshooter to high master level scores.

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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by 45 MIKE on 1/21/2015, 7:38 pm

If Perry was shortened I would like to see Canton run the first part of the week then Perry and CMP
I would like to do Canton but a week at Perry plus Canton is tough to get time off
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by caminod on 1/22/2015, 9:22 am

Newby here but - what if a 1-day 2700 was a separate event, rather than an add-on, also ran type of activity.  Limit the number of shooters, make it more exclusive.  Call it Ironman or something:-)


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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Schaumannk on 1/26/2015, 11:10 pm

45 MIKE wrote:If Perry was shortened I would like to see Canton run the first part of the week then Perry and CMP
I would like to do Canton but a week at Perry plus Canton is tough to get time off
If you talk to the people at Canton, it would probably be quite possible to shoot the entire match on Saturday and Sunday.   You just shoot two of the three relays on Saturday.  Third relay has never been full.  

For those of us who live out west, and have a lot of driving to do, it doesn't seem to matter if the match itself only takes four hours.

We are in it for the whole day, or week and a half in the case of Canton and Perry regardless.

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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by john bickar on 1/27/2015, 12:15 am

Schaumannk wrote:
45 MIKE wrote:If Perry was shortened I would like to see Canton run the first part of the week then Perry and CMP
I would like to do Canton but a week at Perry plus Canton is tough to get time off
If you talk to the people at Canton, it would probably be quite possible to shoot the entire match on Saturday and Sunday.   You just shoot two of the three relays on Saturday.  Third relay has never been full.  

For those of us who live out west, and have a lot of driving to do, it doesn't seem to matter if the match itself only takes four hours.

We are in it for the whole day, or week and a half in the case of Canton and Perry regardless.
The Canton Regional used to be a two-day match, 25-ish years ago. This was when it was a 75-point range, before we expanded the range to 100 firing points. It was expanded to 3 days based on competitor feedback, IIRC. 

Running that match over two days was a ballbuster. 12-to-16-hour days for a week straight for some of the volunteers.
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

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