New Competitors’ Committee

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New Competitors’ Committee

Post by tbrong on 1/14/2015, 1:27 pm

First topic message reminder :

I’d like to address all my friends who shoot bullseye pistol.
 
The past eight months have had several pivotal moments unique to our sport. From this past July to the present, the Competitions Division of the NRA has attempted several major initiatives, for the sport and the National Matches. Some of which perplexed a large portion of our community.
 
It’s unclear what the NRA’s goals have been over the past few months. What arrived in the wake of their initiatives generated what many perceived as little more than machinations on the part of the Association.  Unintentional intrigue or possibly careless execution from our governing body has caused many competitors to express their outrage and lack of confidence. Those concerns were openly made in public media, such as the Bullseye-L Forum and Facebook. It has reminded many of us something we all suspected for a long time: Declining participation is far worse than most of us would have expected.

As such, these circumstances place our sport in peril. It’s rich history and traditions could potentially be severely damaged or lost.
 
I and several others, who have great respect for our sport, have taken the position the NRA needs feedback and guidance from the competitors. Currently there is no such process or mechanism in place. Keep in mind I’m not referring to individual communications, but one that is collective.

I’m suggesting that we organize a committee that would represent the desires and interests of our community in the form of a single voice directed at the Association. I believe that we as competitors can assist the Association in overcoming some of these ongoing issues.

The following are some of the recently pronounced but long-term issues that appear to be either unresolved or neglected:


• The absence of commercial sponsorship at local matches and the National Matches
• Currently there is no branding or national marketing program to recruit new participants
• The NRA’s current lack of operational support for registered matches 
• Several individuals have openly called for us to castoff the NRA and form our own governing body
• The status of electronic targets at the National Matches


In essence, I think it would be wise for us to have our representation based upon regional areas of the country.
 
The following individuals have graciously volunteered to help represent us: Phil Hemphill will represent the Deep South; Brian Zins will represent the Mid-West; Rob Kovach for the Great Lakes Region; Frank Greco and me for the Mid-Atlantic; and John Zurek for the South West.

Additional volunteers for committee members are needed to represent the Mountain States, West Coast and New England regions.

Committee members will be required to reach out to local bullseye shooters to determine their temperament on various issues that relate to the sport. They may be called upon from time to time, to meet with officials of the NRA. And as well, the committee might reach out to the shooting community for assistance in advancing the community’s goals and desires.

The primary purpose of the committee is fairly obvious. Competitors are the sport, and their input for its future direction and scope should have high priority.

Should you have a desire to participate as a member of the committee, please contact me directly by email at: b754020@aol.com

Once the committee is adequately formed and prepared to work, routine updates will be posted on the Bullseye-L Forum.
 



Tony Brong

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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by 9146gt on 1/27/2015, 8:04 am

Rob Kovach wrote:What about awards?  What do you shooters want to see for awards?
This is not going to be popular ,why have awards we have all seen the scores. Pay $40 we will put anything you want on your award.

Tom

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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by sixftunda on 1/27/2015, 9:36 am

My issue is with awards at Regionals and Nationals. 

The biggest disappointment I have had in this sport was the year I won the SS class at Perry.  The previous week I had won SS at Canton, was called up at the award ceremony and received a medal.  I naively assumed a SS win at Perry would merit a walk on stage.  Instead the nice lady at the awards window hands me an envelope with my gift card and had to break me the news that the ceremony is for the top winners.  The following year I attended the ceremony because I was required to as part of being on Team UltraDot and got to see what actually goes on at one.  There are some years where the same shooters win multiple awards and multiple guns. 

Before I am accused I will admit it makes me mad and it is a case of sour grapes.  There is no reason they cant add Class awards to the ceremony and get a company to throw in some prizes.  They eliminated medals for class and team winners at regionals the year following.  Its the wrong direction to take the sport in.
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by dronning on 1/27/2015, 10:01 am

sixftunda wrote:My issue is with awards at Regionals and Nationals. 

..
Last year at our regional there were no class awards, it was a huge disappointment for me.  I just started in the sport and was hoping to pick up a few of the medallions on my way to Master.  It's not a huge cost but means a lot to new shooters.  Maybe to cut costs you can only win once per class and if you repeat you get a pin.
- Dave
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Schaumannk on 1/27/2015, 10:28 am

dronning wrote:
sixftunda wrote:My issue is with awards at Regionals and Nationals. 

..
Last year at our regional there were no class awards, it was a huge disappointment for me.  I just started in the sport and was hoping to pick up a few of the medallions on my way to Master.  It's not a huge cost but means a lot to new shooters.  Maybe to cut costs you can only win once per class and if you repeat you get a pin.
- Dave


I have a drawer full of regional pins. In a busy year, I will get five of them. They change the color but they are all the same at every regional in any given year.

It would be nice to have that money put into some class award pins instead.

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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by paulb1946 on 1/28/2015, 2:21 pm

I have been following lbrong's original post "New Competitor's Committee" and it seems to have taken on a life of its own, so I hope this reaches the appropriate viewers.

The comments originally addressed seemed to be questioning the primary focus and direction of the NRA which apparently has lost interest in growing the competitive shooting community.

I am currently in the process of completing my 2015 election ballot for NRA Board of Directors. Following my review of the nominee's published bios I found only about 5 out of the 35 nominees that had sited any competitive shooting background. Now I am being very generous in my interpretation of "competitive shooting background" to arrive at a possible number of 5. All of the nominees seemed to have their strong points in legislative and management experience but only a few appear to have a moderate to strong background in competitive shooting of any discipline.

IMHO, instead of forming a completely new bureaucracy, why not direct that energy toward the nomination of Board Members that are more understanding of the Competitive Shooting Sports and partially refocus the NRA back to actually pulling the trigger? The 2015 NRA Annual Meeting is 10-12 April in Nashville TN and I cannot think of a better place for a grassroots gathering of those interested in influencing the makeup of the 2016 NRA Board of Directors Nominating Ballot.
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Jack H on 1/28/2015, 4:43 pm

http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47782

A post here on the NRA board vote.
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by paulb1946 on 1/28/2015, 10:46 pm

Jack H, Thanks for the link referencing the NRA Board vote.

Six of the nine recommended nominees are current Board Members. Haven't seen too much of a shift toward the competitive shooting topic at-hand thus far. They may have lost sight of the ball or vital current legislative issues are just too demanding of resources and attention.
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by paulb1946 on 1/29/2015, 1:04 pm

Someone must be reading this forum!

First time I noticed this on the "NRA Competitive Shooting Programs" main page.

http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/resolution.pdf

Just completed my NRA Election Ballot and decided to stray from the pack and do some Write-In Nominations as well;
(hope the Cities and States are correct)
Philip Hemphill of Clinton, Mississippi
Brian Zins of Youngstown, Ohio
Rob Kovach of Brooklyn, Wisconsin
Frank Greco of Atlantic Highlands, New Jersey
John Zurek of Tucson, Arizona
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Rob Kovach on 1/29/2015, 5:18 pm

Thanks for the write-in vote and for finding that resolution!

That resolution was from 2013, but I think we should use that resolution to emphasize why NRA should support our committee's activities, and further emphasize the role Pistol Competition has in the mission of the NRA.

-Rob
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Colt711 on 1/30/2015, 11:27 pm

I have a friend who provides very good information from "inside" NRA. A few yrs ago he advised that emphasizing a competitive shooting record was a death warrant to chances for election to the NRA Board.

For a good many yrs I have done as Paul1946. At one time reading a "Classification held in ------" or "Distinguished" R or P was seen on a good no of the bio's. No more. Was a single DR or DP? If so I missed em.

Just sayin'.

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John Valenti

Post by crowman700 on 7/6/2015, 9:28 am

Gentlemen,
Please let me congratulate you on your position as spokesmen for all the competitive shooters.  Yours is the first step in our journey to a better organization (if they will listen).
I read your comment on the Bull Eye Forum and agree, but like all beginnings, I along with many others who have shot in the EIC matches have request for changes that are simple, to the point and many will agree the change I am talking about is the ammo restriction. Mine is simple.  This all dacketed ammo is very cost prohibited, not only for matches, but practice.
 
So, for myself and all the others that I have talked to to change it to read “Any Safe Ammo 9mm or 45 ACP”.
 
I have 12 points and a bronze.  I would like to finish it with Lead or any safe ammo!
Thanks again,
 

PS: Please help.

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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Rob Kovach on 7/6/2015, 9:56 pm

Dear Crowman700,

So far, we have been focusing on the NRA and their support for our sport where all guns and all safe ammo are already allowed.  EIC and Leg matches are part of the CMP rules.  I will mention your request to the appropriate CMP officials.

Meanwhile, we (the committee) have been discussing the matters that you have been bringing to us--both by phone and in person.  We will be giving the shooters a progress report soon.

-Rob
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Uncle TK on 7/6/2015, 11:15 pm

Most sports change their basic rules over the years to keep the sport alive and well.

Traditional Precision (Bullseye) Pistol, is based on slow fire precision shooting. (One Handed)

Cowboy Action is based on Large and Close Targets. (One or Two Hands)

Action Shooting (USPSA, IDPA) is based on Speed and Accuracy (Two Hands)

NRA Action Pistol, is based on Accuracy & Speed (Fixed Time) (One & Two Hands)
(In my neck of the woods there are no NRA Action Pistol Matches but lots on USPSA & IDPA Matches.

A modern Bullseye needs to be started, but not like the probationary matches a year or two ago.

1) 25 Yard Targets Only (No Fifty yard targets) (Freestyle one & two hand)
2) Ten shot strings (Not the old 5 shot strings)
3) Shorter Firing Time
     a) Slow Fire 20 Seconds for a ten shot string
     b) Timed Fire 10 Seconds for a ten shot string
     c) Rapid Fire 5 Seconds for a ten shot string.

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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by LenV on 7/7/2015, 12:11 am

I can't tell if UncleTK is joking or serious. I hope he is joking. It would sure raise the demand for "Grease guns"
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Fire Escape on 7/7/2015, 8:42 am

"quote"{A modern Bullseye needs to be started, but not like the probationary matches a year or two ago.

1) 25 Yard Targets Only (No Fifty yard targets) (Freestyle one & two hand)
2) Ten shot strings (Not the old 5 shot strings)
3) Shorter Firing Time
     a) Slow Fire 20 Seconds for a ten shot string
     b) Timed Fire 10 Seconds for a ten shot string
     c) Rapid Fire 5 Seconds for a ten shot string.}"quote"

While we are at it , might as well shoot them all on the same target, in sequence and score after (or go to electronic to save more time). I think we could get a whole 300 down under 20 minutes so shooters could get back to important stuff like texting and selfies!

Bruce

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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Jack H on 7/7/2015, 10:12 am

10 shot strings from a 7 shot 1911 mag.  Yeah, right.  In five seconds yet.  35 seconds of shooting, we digress to spray and pray.  New National records would be what, 42% ?

New Distinguished cut off, 12.
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by DavidR on 7/7/2015, 11:13 am

The only reason all the other pistol shooting sports exists is cause they were started by guys who couldn't shoot bullseye worth a hoot. Very Happy
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by TexasShooter on 7/7/2015, 12:41 pm

As I've mentioned in other threads many people are already shooting Bullseye, they just don't know it and they don't do it in a formal competition. Go to any range on a Saturday morning and you'll see people standing in one spot, shooting at what they consider a small target from what they consider a long distance. That's Bullseye...they're just not doing it our way. If we want NRA to pay attention then NRA needs to see growth in Precision Pistol, and those folks shooting casually are the most likely place for that growth to come from.

I see two questions:

FIRST QUESTION
What can we do to convince those shooters to join us in more formal competition and can NRA help with that? As individuals we might start by NOT presenting Bullseye as a sport that requires incredible skill, thousands of hours of practice, and thousands of dollars in equipment. The truth is, anyone can shoot Bullseye and they can do it with almost any handgun they happen to have. They're not going be competitive with the folks that are willing to put in the hours and spend the money but they don't have to be - they can still shoot matches, have fun, learn something, and be part of a great sport.

Can NRA help with that? Mainly it has to happen at the club and individual level but there are things that NRA could do...maybe a website about Precision Pistol that emphasizes the fun and social aspects of a Bullseye match. Find ways to promote the fact at a Bullseye match you spend most of the day shooting; unlike the "action" sports where you spend 5 hours at a match in order to shoot for 90 seconds (and spend the rest of the time watching someone else shoot while twiddling your thumbs). Bullseye is fun and challenging regardless of skill level or equipment, and we need to get that message across...maybe NRA can help with that.

SECOND QUESTION
If we grow Bullseye at the club level, how do we make sure NRA knows it? One of the things I'm sure NRA looks at is the number of scores turned in for classification. I know there are clubs that have Bullseye matches (formal or informal) but don't turn scores in to NRA - they don't like the hassle and fees. One thing I would strongly urge NRA to consider would be a web based system for turning in scores and fees. That would certainly reduce the hassle of printing reports, writing a check sticking it in an envelope, and mailing it in so someone at NRA can sit and put scores in the computer. If it is set up right it could also save NRA some money, so maybe the fees could be reduced to the point where more clubs would be willing to get involved. (NRA reducing fees...I'm letting my imagination run away with me).

I'm sure that the growth of the action sports is only a very small part of the problem. I certainly don't have all the answers, and maybe the answers I've suggested are completely off base. I'm just suggesting we look for answers from within our sport and within ourselves...

Clay

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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by dronning on 7/7/2015, 1:04 pm

I've always thought having a 2 or 3 gun NMC match would be a good way to get people started. Maybe do it all at 25 yards. Doesn't burn up much ammo and certainly not a big time commitment. You could do re-entries if people wanted to shoot more. The re-entries could be for fun or you could have a separate re-entry match.

Shooting a 2700 can be overwhelming for a new shooter.

- Dave
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by DavidR on 7/7/2015, 1:58 pm

Some ranges offer 1800's and shoot at 25 yds.
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by dronning on 7/7/2015, 2:15 pm

DavidR wrote:Some ranges offer 1800's and shoot at 25 yds.

We shoot 1800's all winter (indoors) both 2 and 3 gun matches, 25yds & 50ft. But I still believe a 90 shot 3 gun NMC will get some of the fence sitters to give it a try.

- Dave
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Jack H on 7/7/2015, 3:21 pm

One thing we the peanut gallery can do is put on local programs.  Innovate.  Write articles for things like SSUSA.  BTW the recent SSUSA has about 15-16 large layout ads in it.  Not a one is about bullseye relevant goods.  (And that EAA ad Borg female rifle thing is terrible)

Isn't there among us another Jack Oconner type really into bullseye?
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by TexasShooter on 7/7/2015, 5:13 pm

I'll confess...I had to google Jack O'Conner to see who he was Smile

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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by orpheoet on 7/7/2015, 7:31 pm

As someone fairly new to Bullseye I can say that it was very difficult to even find matches until I went to my first. THEN people told me where they were at. I'd suggest an updated system of match information as a priority. Shooting my first match at Regional in Canton last year was not especially encouraging. I'd never even shot at 50 yards before! Fortunately the people around me were very encouraging. 
My point is that this sport is almost like a secret society. By far most of my information came from The Encyclopedia of Bullseye Pistol site, and this forum. NOT from the NRA's site. A simple easy to navigate site with upcoming events and information relevant to new shooters would be a great start in my opinion.


Last edited by orpheoet on 7/7/2015, 7:37 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarification)
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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

Post by Wobbley on 7/7/2015, 7:56 pm

Even an 1800 can be daunting for a beginner.  One thing the HP rifle guys had was the lure of an M1 from the CMP so a lot of folks shot in a HP match or two to qualify.  There could be something like this for BE pistol. Not a gun, but maybe some piece of equipment or a substantial discount.  ????

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Re: New Competitors’ Committee

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