Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

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Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

Post by scrum derringer on Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:14 pm

I have been pondering this for awhile, it may not be a good idea, but, I am looking at getting a STI Targetmaster in either 9 or 45...tbd. I am wanting it for a PPC match later this summer, and the benefit of it is that it would qualify for both Open and distinguished matches. Though there is no PPC around here, and I may only shoot this match every other year, A dedicated PPC gun is not a need but a want, all of this shooting is a want. I am trying to justify this gun, in my mind, as serving double duty, PPC gun and possible centerfire BE gun especially if i get the 9mm.

So, Gunsmiths, how difficult would it be to add an additional slide and barrel to the existing STI frame, and be some what accurate. I am thinking that if I get the 9mm that I would get a 5" slide and barrel and just have a rail put on it either 9mm or possibly a .38 super? From my very minimal venture into the idea of home gunsmithing, I believe that you generally fit the frame to the slide. My intention is to get the 5" slide from STI, hoping that they could be compatible without modifying the existing frame.

I am aware that the target master isn't the best for PPC but its a better option for what I want it for and the level ill be shooting at. Also, PPC Shooters, why 9mm over 45? I am leaning towards the 9 strictly because I do not have a 9mm 1911 yet, however, it seems that 45 is easier to load for.

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Re: Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

Post by Jon Eulette on Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:48 pm

Typically frames and slides that were FIT together in the first place have both the frame and slide altered to fit. If it is a throw together with no fitting from the factory then parts are unaltered. So in other words if it wasn't gunsmith fit in the first place it's as easy as putting another slide on it in some cases. If it were me, I'd leave the frame alone and make all modifications to the new slide. That way original slide to frame fit is unaltered. In my experience if the new slide is loose you can still get excellent accuracy because when the bottom barrel lugs are fit the gunsmith can fit it to accomodate the looser frame to slide fit. Since you are shooting/sighting off the slide with iron sights you will lose no accuracy.  If you were frame mounting a scope that's different because you are sighting off the frame. Over the years I have built many pistols that had multiple slides. It's not a big deal.
Jon

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Re: Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

Post by robert84010 on Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:48 pm

I have to question why you would buy a pistol that you know is not really the best option for PPC and then spend several hundred more dollars for a slide a barrel and gunsmithing to use it for another discipline, $$$$. Especially if you are only shooting PPC once every other year.
Seems to me if you are only participating every other year just use whatever  1911 you have for the 1500 match since you are not really competing anyway. The rules for PPC are a little confusing in that some pistols are legal for both open and distinguished but many are not specifically listed as legal in both? To me a quality build for bullseye would be legal and competive for open class. Les Baer states their PPC 1911 is basically a Premier pistol with the PPC specific sights.  

Jerry should be able to answer specifics since he built for and shot in both disciplines.

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Re: Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

Post by Jerry Keefer on Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:02 pm

OK..I have been away from PPC for over 10 years.. At that time, and I believe it is still in effect, the difference between open and distinguished is 5 inch slides with no full length ribs, for distinguished only.. 6 inch slides for open class, full length ribs optional.  These classes were new when I was shooting.. So I put together a 5 inch 45 and shot both open and distinguished with the same gun. I went distinguished in four matches..,  set and held the Va State Distinguished record for a few years, and won the Master class at the  Jackson, Nationals in 1994 with that 45..That gun was/is also Bullseye DCM legal. If I had to do it again, I would do the same thing.. The 5 inch 45 will do it all and do it well..Although I was very successful with the 9mm early on, with National records that stood for 10years, I am still not a fan of that cartridge.

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Re: Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

Post by scrum derringer on Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:59 pm

robert84010 wrote:I have to question why you would buy a pistol that you know is not really the best option for PPC and then spend several hundred more dollars for a slide a barrel and gunsmithing to use it for another discipline, $$$$. Especially if you are only shooting PPC once every other year.
Seems to me if you are only participating every other year just use whatever  1911 you have for the 1500 match since you are not really competing anyway. The rules for PPC are a little confusing in that some pistols are legal for both open and distinguished but many are not specifically listed as legal in both? To me a quality build for bullseye would be legal and competive for open class. Les Baer states their PPC 1911 is basically a Premier pistol with the PPC specific sights.  

Jerry should be able to answer specifics since he built for and shot in both disciplines.
 If you can find me a decent RRA or Les Baer 6" 1911 with tri set aristocrat sights, for under $1500, ill take it. Otherwise the Targetmaster is the only option right now. I do have quality build bullseye guns however they would not qualify for Distinguisted, les baer wad with rail, and Clark harbball with welded on new front sight(a no no).

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Re: Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

Post by scrum derringer on Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:02 pm

Jerry Keefer wrote:OK..I have been away from PPC for over 10 years.. At that time, and I believe it is still in effect, the difference between open and distinguished is 5 inch slides with no full length ribs, for distinguished only.. 6 inch slides for open class, full length ribs optional. 
Jerry,
the rules have changed I guess not sure when -> NRA PPC Bulletin 12-2 Re:STI targetmaster

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Re: Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

Post by Jerry Keefer on Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:39 pm

OK... Stock service is what we referred to as a duty gun match..  Open class is just that, and is fairly open to a lot of options.. 
I am surprised at the 6 in for distinguished...But that's better yet, as it will still fit into the open 6 inch ruling.

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Re: Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

Post by robert84010 on Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:23 pm

They never make it easy, do they. I'm just saying that I don't think you will be happy with the targetmaster, and you are not really talking about $1600, you are saying you want to buy a $1600 pistol and then put money into it, i'm saying just wait and save. it seems to not be a priority. If you already have top quality pistols you will not be happy with the PPC targetmaster, they are priced there for a reason, and will want to throw money at it also.

 buy once, cry once.

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Re: Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

Post by scrum derringer on Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:57 pm

robert84010 wrote:They never make it easy, do they. I'm just saying that I don't think you will be happy with the targetmaster, and you are not really talking about $1600, you are saying you want to buy a $1600 pistol and then put money into it, i'm saying just wait and save. it seems to not be a priority. If you already have top quality pistols you will not be happy with the PPC targetmaster, they are priced there for a reason, and will want to throw money at it also.

 buy once, cry once.
Robert,

Im saying I want to buy the gun for its use, and then put money into it so it can be used for bullseye as well. Such as having an excuse for a .38 super. STI claims that it is a 2" gun in both calibers @50 yards with good ammo. By BE standards that's okay to pretty good by today's standards. The B27 X ring and 10 ring seem enormous now compared to the bullseye x and 10 rings. That being said, if the gun is a true 2 inch gun, whats the problem? I know I don't have a 2 inch 2 hand hold.  If I am going to go the route of a PPC gun I need it relatively soon so I can train with it and shoot the match in late June, thus making the TM more appealing. I equate this to being able to participate in the (le)Tour du France as a first race. I know I am not going to win it all, or afford a high end carbon fiber bike to help me win, but I also don't want to show up with a mountain bike. This match  is just an awesome opportunity to attend so I don't want to pass it up, but I also don't want to waste my time too much. The idea being that the target-master is one gun for both matches. So one gun to travel with and load for, in addition to the PPC revolver that I had just happened to pick up because it looked cool and accurate. Now I have a use for that Revolver!!

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Re: Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

Post by robert84010 on Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:27 pm

why not just buy the TM but not put any more money into it?

it's a frustrating discipline to get into. there are more pistols needed for it than bullseye. I thought it was training for policeman, I guess very well paid policeman, not the young guys.

I wanted to get started in PPC but since i'm not an LEO, it just isn't going to happen.

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Re: Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

Post by robert84010 on Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:36 pm

There is always the option of a S&W PPC 9, which is legal for both open and the distinguished auto match. They are said to be good shooters at 50yds. 

Jerry, what bullet and load did you use for 9mm??

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Re: Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

Post by Jerry Keefer on Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:36 pm

robert84010 wrote:Jerry, what bullet and load did you use for 9mm??
Ha....After the guns were built in 2001 for the police team, we worked day and night on numerous loads. Nothing was exceptional. Thru the lady that owns Southern Belle Brass, I became acquainted with her brother, who  just happened to be the owner of AMI ammo. I acquired several cases of his match ammo, and the search was over, and the rest became history.. The Hornady XTP is about the best bullet out there. The team has long ago exhausted the AMI, but load something similar with the 147 XTP..from a 16 twist barrel.
We tried the 1 X32 for a while, but at their request, the 1X16s were replaced.
I haven't seen the guns in years.. One is a safe queen and the other is shot yearly at the Nationals. He loads his own, and all I know is the Hornady is the bullet being used..

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Re: Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

Post by robert84010 on Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:01 pm

Jerry,
i'm curious how the 45 you built was setup, since it qualified for both PPC (restricrive rules) and CMP rules. any pictures? thanks.

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Re: Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

Post by Jerry Keefer on Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:50 pm

robert84010 wrote:Jerry,
i'm curious how the 45 you built was setup, since it qualified for both PPC (restricrive rules) and CMP rules. any pictures? thanks.
It was a SA 5 inch. The sights were Aristocrat Rear tri set.. not the rib style.. The buried type.  It was challenged a time or two during bullseye leg matches,  because the Tri Set was new at the time, and a wide departure from the standard Bo Mar. It always passed.
I don't have any photos of that gun.. Sorry..

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Re: Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

Post by LenV on Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:15 pm

Aristocrat tri set


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Re: Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

Post by Jerry Keefer on Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:02 pm

That's it..
Thanks..

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Re: Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

Post by jerry lehrer on Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:01 pm

Jerry K.,

When trying to use a 9mm slide on a frame setup for .45, you run into ejector problems.  .45
ejectors are not compatible with 9mm/.38Super slides.  Trying to make an ejector to work with
both is an exercise in futility.  Clark, Giles etc, said that it can't be done. 

Jerry Lehrer

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Re: Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

Post by Jerry Keefer on Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:19 pm

jerry lehrer wrote:Jerry K.,

When trying to use a 9mm slide on a frame setup for .45, you run into ejector problems.  .45
ejectors are not compatible with 9mm/.38Super slides.  Trying to make an ejector to work with
both is an exercise in futility.  Clark, Giles etc, said that it can't be done. 

Jerry Lehrer
You are correct..
The gun I used was a 45 for both disciplines...

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Re: Gunsmith question: Additional Slide and barrel to existing frame

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