9mm Accuracy & Velocity

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9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by beeser on 1/27/2015, 7:42 pm

First topic message reminder :

Everything that I've read on this forum indicates that 9mm has to be pushed fast to be accurate.  Why is this when .45 ACP and .38 Special seem to perform fine at much lower velocities?    This doesn't make sense to me.

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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by dronning on 2/4/2015, 12:06 pm

OldMaster64 wrote:No more excuses Beezer lol!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=466786351


I wonder what the reserve is? I am so tempted!

- Dave
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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by beeser on 2/4/2015, 4:08 pm

OldMaster64 wrote:No more excuses Beezer lol!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=466786351
Placed a bid based on my current desire for the gun but didn't reach reserve.  What's a fair value for this thing?

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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by LenV on 2/4/2015, 6:32 pm

Found 4 more. 6000.00 for a match set of 945 and a 952. 2900.00 for a ss long slide. 3600.00 for early one like this and this one.
https://www.rockwellarms.com/Store/ProductDetails/Used-SW-Model-952-9mm-for-Sale  Which is not available but gives you ball park number.
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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by beeser on 2/4/2015, 6:41 pm

OldMaster64 wrote:Found 4 more. 6000.00 for a match set of 945 and a 952. 2900.00 for a ss long slide. 3600.00 for early one like this and this one.
https://www.rockwellarms.com/Store/ProductDetails/Used-SW-Model-952-9mm-for-Sale  Which is not available but gives you ball park number.
Those are certainly representative asking numbers but where do you place value?  I for one have no interest in collector value, which it seems some of these asking prices are approaching.

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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by dronning on 2/4/2015, 9:06 pm

beeser wrote:
OldMaster64 wrote:No more excuses Beezer lol!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=466786351
Placed a bid based on my current desire for the gun but didn't reach reserve.  What's a fair value for this thing?


I'm sure his reserve was north of $1,750.  These don't come up often and if it were mine given it's shape I'd hold out for at least $2K.

-Dave
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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by beeser on 2/4/2015, 11:01 pm

dronning wrote:
beeser wrote:
OldMaster64 wrote:No more excuses Beezer lol!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=466786351
Placed a bid based on my current desire for the gun but didn't reach reserve.  What's a fair value for this thing?


I'm sure his reserve was north of $1,750.  These don't come up often and if it were mine given it's shape I'd hold out for at least $2K.

-Dave
Do you think it's worth that much?  At that price it's getting close to a Sig P210.

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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by LenV on 2/4/2015, 11:46 pm

I was offered 2800.00 for mine. Turned it down. There were good buys on them even a year ago but they are getting harder to find.

Len


147 gr XTP. Still room to improve.

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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by james r chapman on 2/5/2015, 6:00 am

Len, what's your load?
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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by beeser on 2/5/2015, 8:22 am

Len - Very nice 952 and shooting.  Was that at 25 or 50 yds?

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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by LenV on 2/5/2015, 9:43 am

The load I use in the 147 gr XTP is 5.1 gr of Power Pistol with a C.O.L.of 1.10. That was shot at 25 yds in 2013. I just ordered some 115gr SWCBB from Penn that I am going to play with and see if I can work up a load for.

Len
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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by beeser on 2/5/2015, 10:05 am

OldMaster64 wrote:The load I use in the 147 gr XTP is 5.1 gr of Power Pistol with a C.O.L.of 1.10. That was shot at 25 yds in 2013. I just ordered some 115gr SWCBB from Penn that I am going to play with and see if I can work up a load for.

Len
That would be interesting to hear about your efforts with the Penn 115gr SWCBB.  Incidentally, what is the twist rate on your 952 barrel?

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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by LenV on 2/5/2015, 10:21 am

The twist rate is 1:18.75 RH 5 groove. I am now searching for some recoil springs of the same size but reduced weight so I can play with reduced loads. Wolfe has a spring kit for the 52 that will probably work. And another kit for the model 39 that goes up from where the 52 kit stops. I should be able to make something work.
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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by beeser on 2/5/2015, 11:05 am

OldMaster64 wrote:The twist rate is 1:18.75 RH 5 groove. I am now searching for some recoil springs of the same size but reduced weight so I can play with reduced loads. Wolfe has a spring kit for the 52 that will probably work. And another kit for the model 39 that goes up from where the 52 kit stops. I should be able to make something work.
Even more interesting.  Please keep us posted.

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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by Ghillieman on 2/5/2015, 9:07 pm

Joe L, that is some great shooting with that CZ, is it stock? Would you mind posting a photo of the barrel locking lugs, wonder if is similar to the Glock.
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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by Joe L on 2/6/2015, 6:30 am

Ghillieman--
Sure, I'll post some this weekend.  I had good results at 100 yards every time I shot this gun.  Some of my CZ buddies suggested I try 200, so I did. Here is the video of the first attempt at 200.  I've shot it two more times at 200 with similar results.




Obviously, I'm happy with the gun.  The size of the group is dependent on how accurately I can place the dot on the target, not so much slop in the gun, believe me.

Joe

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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by Joe L on 2/7/2015, 3:22 pm

Here is a link to some photos of the breech end of the CZ P-09.  Yes, it needs cleaning. 

http://joelynch.smugmug.com/Firearms/CZ-P-09-Lockup-2-7-15/47373194_pW4ckg

Here is a another 200 yard session, just to confirm the first one wasn't a fluke. 



Back to the original question, I have had good luck with the 115 JHP from Atlanta Arms in this P-09, whatever the barrel twist rate is.  These are minor power factor loads, about 1100 fps, from what I've read.  I have not chronographed them.  I have had really good results every time I've shot this gun at 100 and 200 yards so I am hesitant to deviate from this combination of sight/pistol/ammo. 

Joe

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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by Joe L on 2/21/2015, 4:19 pm

Oops, I thought I posted these photos but I guess I didn't.  Here is a link to some photos showing the P-09 lock up details.

P-09 lock up photos

Joe

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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by GrumpyOldMan on 2/21/2015, 7:38 pm

Thanks! need shots of the locking block too, please.

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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by Joe L on 2/21/2015, 8:43 pm

GrumpyOldMan wrote:Thanks! need shots of the locking block too, please.
Added to the gallery linked above.  Let me know if you need anything else.  It is obvious that I didn't clean the gun.  Might ruin it, LOL.

http://joelynch.smugmug.com/Firearms/CZ-P-09-Lockup-2-7-15/47373194_pW4ckg

Tell me what you see, good and bad, except that the gun needs to be cleaned.  This one has 10k rounds through it so far. 

Joe

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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by GrumpyOldMan on 2/22/2015, 10:05 am

Ah, so like a 1911, that CZ's lockup in the area of forcing the barrel up is solely with the [equivalent of?] the slide stop pin!

Not cleaning? Reminds me of the stories of major league pitchers who won't wash their underwear during a winning streak. DON'T ANSWER!!!!

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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by LenV on 2/25/2015, 6:57 pm

Update. The 952 that I told Beeser about in this post went for 2250.00. That was a bit less then I thought it would go for. This was just a FWIW (literally) post.
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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by james r chapman on 3/1/2015, 8:14 pm

oldmaster, I got some 147 XTP's in and loaded them with 3.9 gr WSF.

showing promise, unfortunately, being this is the 2nd coldest February in Michigan history, I can only test indoors right now at 50'. But for PPC, we're talking x-ring capable so far. nice, light recoil too. about like that ol' .38 special wadcutter load.

oh, it's with a Nowlin barrel. probably a 1-16 twist.
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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by Wobbley on 3/1/2015, 9:58 pm

The 38 WC and the 9mm are the same diameter and shoot similar weights, but far more goes into bullet stability at transonic speeds than RPM and velocity.  The relationship between the center of the air pressure and the center of mass and the yaw.  There are numerous treatises on this in decent rifle ballistics books.  At this point you have to experiment.

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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by LenV on 3/1/2015, 10:41 pm

James,  Sorry to hear your having cold days in Hell. I swear by the 147gr in my S&W. I am glad they are working out for you also. I ordered some 115gr SWCBB from Penn but they have not shown up yet. I ordered some 135gr 40 cal at the same time and he had to do a run on them so they will probably all show up together. I will give a report as soon as I work up a load that I like (if I find one). Frosty this morning but T-shirt weather by this afternoon. I would have made it to the range but got "Honeydoed"

Len
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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

Post by Jerry Keefer on 3/2/2015, 8:35 am

Wobbley wrote:The 38 WC and the 9mm are the same diameter and shoot similar weights, but far more goes into bullet stability at transonic speeds than RPM and velocity.  The relationship between the center of the air pressure and the center of mass and the yaw.  There are numerous treatises on this in decent rifle ballistics books.  At this point you have to experiment.

Yes, and there is even more that you did not mention, but 700fps and 10 thru 14 twist thru a compatible bore diameter,  has never failed to produce record groups with the 148HBWC..
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Re: 9mm Accuracy & Velocity

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