Recommended drop-in trigger kit?

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Recommended drop-in trigger kit?

Post by beeser on Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:33 pm

First topic message reminder :

Which drop-in trigger kit is recommended for a Range Officer?  There seems to be a large selection of these kits out there and would like some help deciding which one to get.

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Re: Recommended drop-in trigger kit?

Post by Froneck on Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:27 am

I have a number of drop in triggers, given to me with no charge, why I will not answer. The issue is simply that if you have a gun that is shooting an 8" group and put the best "Drop In" trigger in it, put the best High end Red Dot scope on it too and get the Best Magazines for it you will still have an 8" gun and become a lifetime Marksman! Someone that knows what they are doing can do can touch-up the stock hammer and sear to do just as good! Again the purchase of the "Drop In" is the attempt to buy a higher score. For example have you been to an IDPA match? They have been shooting at our club. They dress the part, from head to toe they are in "uniform" they have fancy Gun boxes with all the goodies then go to the 5 yard line and miss the large target with 2 hand hold! That fancy shirt pants and hat plus all the goodies in the Gun box does nothing to help their shooting.
 The first thing a new shooter should do is take the gun to the range either put it in a Ransom Rest or on Sand Bags and test it. If there is a Master near, have him do it. If it will not shoot in the 10 ring at 50 yards then don't try shooting it at that range! Putting a "Drop In" in the gun will do nothing.
 Furthermore just like the other poster said a new shooter does not know what he wants or really know what Roll or Crisp really is and as he also mentioned he had both! Spent his money twice! Yet he still has the Marksman Classification not one time did he mention how the gun grouped! Or the other poster that dropped in a C&S set and is shooting 96 slow fire at 50' yet he too is still a Marksman! What he don't mention is how many times in a row he shot in the High 90's with it!
 To a new shooter the "Drop In" Rolls simply because that's what is said on the package. In that group of "Drop In" sets I have a few do not do as they say they are! Shooting one great score at 50' is not going to make you a master if you have no idea how you did it!
 Another example at Benning one of the top AMU International shooter wanted to become Distinguished. Because she did not like the 9mm, purchased her own 1911 from what he claims is the Best 1911 available. Will not mention who. She could not shoot anything near what will be required to get distinguished with it yet she is a very good shooter! Seeking help the gun was tested and found that it will not keep in the Black on a 50 yard Target! A gun the shoots a 7 ring group is not going to get you in the Master class!
 The bottom line is that a new shooter should direct his attention and resources to a gun that will at least shoot a 10 ring group! If he can afford a High end pistol then by all means get it with the understanding that it will not make you a Master shooter but will allow you to train to become a Master however so will a touched-up stock gun that will group 10 ring. That should be the priority, everything else is window dressing! Just like the IDPA shooters that can't shoot but they look good!
 Simply put I do not want to be crude or rude, I do not want to insult anyone! I simply want to help shooters that want to become Masters get into the Master Class! I will give you the facts and not dance around the issue. You need to know that when you did everything right you got the score you intended. If for some reason you did something wrong but the inaccuracy of the gun so happened to correct it then you will continue to shoot that way and never be able to repeat the result previously attained. False AH HA needs to be detected, an accurate  shooting gun will do that.

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Re: Recommended drop-in trigger kit?

Post by Jerry Keefer on Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:29 am

I am going to agree with Frank here.. I have often said the same thing he did.. Always buy the most accurate gun you can possibly afford..The tighter the gun groups, the more it mitigates shooter error.. Everyone has shooter error and fatigue.. When the shot breaks in a gun that shoots 3 inches, which many have alluded to, as all that is necessary, on the outside edge of the ten ring, it's quite possible for that shot to be  a wide 8 or even a 7.. An 1-1/2 in gun will always score better,  even for a tyro..A major factor in becoming a serious competitor, is learning to call your shots.. Impossible to do with an inaccurate gun.
Does anyone think that the AMU or other top  contenders go to the line with a gun that is not on call and shooting 1-1/2 inch or better..??

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Re: Recommended drop-in trigger kit?

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:29 am

^^^That's all great^^^

BUT. With all that said, the question posted here is "What drop-in trigger kit is recommended for a [Springfield] Range Officer."

I find more enjoyment in sharing this sport with new competitors than I do from dryfiring...that explains my current classification, but that doesn't tell the whole story.

Because of the outreach that I am doing, many of the new shooters are buying their very first 1911 with no idea if they will stick with the sport or not, so they buy the Springfield Range Officer.  At $700 you get a 2"-3"ish gun with a 8lb trigger, but very little risk if it turns out the shooter doesn't want to go any farther in the sport.

I've tested a fairly decent sample of these guns, and I've been fairly happy with the off-the-shelf accuracy of all of them.

What needs to be addressed then, given the guns come from the factory with appx. 2"-3" accuracy is the 5-8lb trigger. 

These shooters aren't concerned with that 9 with the 3" gun that should have been a 10 with a 1" gun!!  They are trying not to send three of the 10 shots into the "official target" logo on the bottom left!  Enough of this pontificating about stuff that has nothing to do with trigger parts!  It's not part of what the original poster asked.

So back to the original posters question--which was NOT which gunsmith should I choose to do my trigger job--was which drop-in trigger kit is recommended for a [Springfield] Range officer.

In my experience with Springfield ROs, the C&S kits are going to improve the trigger pull weight and feel over the stock parts and is going to give the shooter who is installing it valuable knowledge about how the fire control components of their 1911 work--especially if they are new to the platform.

I want to remind everyone that every shooter in this sport has different goals.  Some of the shooters on this forum have no ambitions to become distinguished, or master class--some of them just want to get better in the Marksman class and have fun.  Some of them just want to have the fancy boxes and gear and look the part.  Let's keep that in perspective when we answer the questions that are asked here.  If the question is "what drop-in trigger is recommended", the answer should never be "you don't even know why that isn't the right question to ask".

rant over.

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Re: Recommended drop-in trigger kit?

Post by LongSlide on Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:04 pm

Froneck wrote:
 Furthermore just like the other poster said a new shooter does not know what he wants or really know what Roll or Crisp really is and as he also mentioned he had both! Spent his money twice! Yet he still has the Marksman Classification not one time did he mention how the gun grouped! Or the other poster that dropped in a C&S set and is shooting 96 slow fire at 50' yet he too is still a Marksman! What he don't mention is how many times in a row he shot in the High 90's with it!
 To a new shooter the "Drop In" Rolls simply because that's what is said on the package. In that group of "Drop In" sets I have a few do not do as they say they are! Shooting one great score at 50' is not going to make you a master if you have no idea how you did it!
 
Froneck, you assume way too much and the line of argument you're following is flawed.  Let make a few of clarifications for you:


  • My classification is not from years of work; I did not start shooting bullseye until last year.  I've had a total of 2 matches (both 1800 matches) one in June and  the other in September. First match I shot a 983 (first time shooting 50 yards) and the second I shot 1190.  I was hoping to do a third in November, but it was canceled. Technically, I'm  still unclassified as far the NRA is concerned since I haven't received a card from them.
  • Both matches were shot with my longslide and brand new Browning buckmark for the .22 portion (I don't have enough time with the buckmark yet, but the gun will hold the 10 ring at 50 yards from a rest).
  • Classification aside, I've been shooting since I was 16 for recreation, but  never in any competition of any type, never longer than 25 yards, and  never rapid fire (ranges won't allow it).
  • The first SA is a longslide that I got in the early 2000's, which I upgraded to the C&S drop-in kit in 2007, changed from a bull barrel to a Kart EZ-fit NM bushing barrel (original barrel was the worst fit barrel I've ever seen in a production gun) , and replaced other associated parts on the gun to my liking. I've since put over 20,000 rounds on that fire-control group and it is still a light, crisp trigger that has never been a problem.
  • I'm running the longslide and buckmark with iron sights (because that's how my dad did it)
  • The longslide easily holds black at 50 yards from a sandbag rest with my reloads.  It will -- and I have --  place 5 consecutive shots into the 10 ring at 50 yards from the rest. The gun will do it.
  • The RO is new last year and I wanted it to do CMP competitions.  The trigger was the same as the original trigger on the longslide from 7 years before: short, gritty and relatively heavy at 5.5#.  Both  hammers appear to be identical with short hammer hooks at 0.018".  Both original sears are too short for the Harrison TR jig, which I have and used on other 1911s.   The stock triggers, to be polite were just "bad".  Like with the longslide, I decided junk the original parts and get drop-ins.
  • Contrary to what you inferred, I do know a "good" trigger from a "bad" trigger.
  • I know what a roll trigger is and did know for a long time before deciding to go with it for the RO.  I've had one in a low-end 1911 for a few years and I've come to appreciate how it lets me detect when I'm about to jerk the trigger to low-left. I've still got a lot of trigger time I need to get, but don't we all.
  • And yes, I spent my money twice, but separated by 7.5 years.
  • And yes, I'm still a "Marksman", but have only 2 matches under my belt from last summer.  That will change.


Some points for your consideration:

  • The  triggers in both SA's were crap. And I don't think any master 'smtih could have produced the triggers you think they could have with those stock parts.  I still have those parts and would invite any master 'smith to try with them, it would be an  interesting experiment.
  • Both the C&S and KC drop-in kits worked as advertised:  they dropped-in and gave excellent triggers without issues.  No manufacturing tolerance stacking, non-parallel holes, or other happy horse hockey.
  • The preference for which or what type of trigger is "best" is a personal decision of each shooter.  People make decisions on the basis of information they have and often change their minds as new information reveals itself. 
  • And lastly, how does a new shooter without  the experience of a number of triggers go about instructing the master 'smith -- that you advocate -- on what they want done to the trigger?  I mean, if they aren't "reading it on the side of the package", as you point out, then they're reading it on the internet if they don't have experience.

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Re: Recommended drop-in trigger kit?

Post by Froneck on Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:31 pm

I feel my first answer was addressing the OP's question, the "BEST" drop in is to not drop it in but get the stock trigger touched-up! I believe everyone else injected getting a better score. Even you stated "newer shooters to believe the only way to master is with a 3X $3000+Guns"
 Requesting the BEST drop in is rather rhetorical. There are so many factors that will determine exactly how the set will respond with the pin locations in the gun that no drop in will give good results. Lowering the pull weight is easily done by bending the spring!
 I'm sure the OP thinks that dropping in a hammer/sear set is going to result in a better score no matter what type or level of shooting he is involved with. I simply state that the drop in will not do what he thinks it will and he's is better off spending that money with a good smith that can decipher his actual intention! I'm sure most smiths will inspect the gun and offer an estimate as to the cost and the gun owner can decide if that is his best option or chance a drop in! To offer the new shooter a pile of options offered by those that used various brands will eventually cause him to pick one and try it! I guess what I'm trying to tell the OP is to get a second opinion from someone that can look at the gun in question, check the pins and offer a better suggestion than anyone here guessing as to what the OP actually wants or has!

Frank

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Re: Recommended drop-in trigger kit?

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:50 pm

Frank,
I'm really sorry that you somehow interpreted the previous posts the way you have.  I didn't interpret anyone's post to say that drop-in trigger kits were what is "best" nor did I interpret anyone's post to say that buying a drop-in trigger kit was a way to buy a better score, but somehow you made the post about that.

This post was about recommendations of drop-in trigger kits.  There are people who have access to this forum that don't have access to the things that you have advocated on this thread.  Please don't alienate them further by beating the dead horse again.  If you have a recommendation that you haven't iterated yet, then by all means add it to the discussion.

This sport as well as this forum is about positive thought.  Conflict and argument rarely leads to better performance so I hope we can put this conflict behind us and move forward in a positive way.

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Re: Recommended drop-in trigger kit?

Post by Froneck on Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:48 pm

Well I guess I may have added Best assuming the OP and others thought they was the best, certainly you wouldn't want the worst! I'm not here to argue, I want to inform. I can understand that many areas don't have a gunsmith and probably not a competent one for this application. As you can see many of the replies have been questionable. As to how does someone without experience instruct a Master smith, You Don't! The same way you talk to your Doctor, tell him where or what the problem is not how to cure you! Same as the SA triggers were crap! They make the gun that seem to meet with approval so they put in crap triggers? They are usually the same quality as the drop in but cut to avoid litigation. "It  was the Gun Officer it just went off by itself and shot my wife 3 times in the back" Floy Aikman a smith long time ago built guns for the Top shooters using surplus GI parts.
 I guess I have a pet peeve. Often at my club I see the worst shooter giving new shooters advise. I usually get to them and say get your advise from a shooter that just won the match and was not happy with his score than from someone that was elated he was second from last place!
 Anyway I guess it best to shut up and get out of this topic.


Last edited by Froneck on Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Recommended drop-in trigger kit?

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:11 pm

Froneck wrote:As you can see many of the replies have been questionable
That's your opinion, and we don't criticize the opinions of others on this forum. We instead offer our own if they differ.  I ask that the people on this forum share their observations whether they have been shooting for many years, or just a few months.  I believe the previous posts on the thread are consistent with those member's observations with drop-in trigger kits, and are welcome.
Your posts didn't really quantify your direct experience with either drop-in trigger kits, nor Springfield Range Officers, but offered an alternative solution: which was fine to offer--ONCE maybe twice to clarify something.
Froneck wrote:I guess I have a pet peeve. Often at my club I see the worst shooter giving new shooters advise. I usually get to them and say get you advice from a shooter that just won the match and was not happy with his score than from someone that was elated he was second from last place!
When you come here, to this forum, leave your peeves from your home club at the door.

All of us are in a different place in our journey through this sport.  What works for one of us might not work for that new shooter. Sometimes it's the breakthrough that the match winner forgot about 5 years ago that is relevant to the new shooter. That 2nd-to-last place shooter might have observations that work for the new shooter.  Having a forum like this is about hearing all of the voices--not just the voices of the match winners.
It's OK to disagree--but it's not ok to say that your opinion is the only correct one and hammer the dissenting opinions into silence.

I can admit that I have violated my own vision for this forum a couple times, but I am striving to do better.  I hope we can all learn from this and continue to do a better job keeping the lines of communication open for the shooters of this sport in this forum community.

Now. Let's get back to recommendations for drop-in trigger kits.

I've got the C&S USMC kit in my ball gun, and I like it.

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Re: Recommended drop-in trigger kit?

Post by Gene Hedberg on Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:40 pm

I like C&S too Rob! I would also like to try one of KC's roll triggers.

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Re: Recommended drop-in trigger kit?

Post by C.Perkins on Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:19 pm

My Clark Sr. long slide I installed the C&S 3.5# Super match kit and a set of EGW pins throughout.
I like it.

Clarence

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Re: Recommended drop-in trigger kit?

Post by Jack H on Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:13 pm

On drop in kit that I do have.
The Ax hammer kit dropped right in and releases very good.  But the long roll has a bit of creep at the beginning.  Alex has said in email to send the gun RO back to them.  I am not really wanting to do that.  Maybe eventually.

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Re: Recommended drop-in trigger kit?

Post by KenO on Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:50 pm

I put a C&S drop in, in my 1911. I'm very happy with it.

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Re: Recommended drop-in trigger kit?

Post by kjanracing on Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:03 pm

Not to derail this discussion, but for a roll trigger set up, how long are the hammer hooks typically?

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Re: Recommended drop-in trigger kit?

Post by LongSlide on Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:04 am

kjanracing wrote:Not to derail this discussion, but for a roll trigger set up, how long are the hammer hooks typically?
From C&S site:


CS0220 Product Description wrote:CS0220 - 1911 Marine Corps 3.5 lb. Trigger Pull (5 piece) Set
The M Corps Spur Hammer 5 Piece 3.5 lb trigger pull set contains the parts from the 3-piece set, hammer spring, and our light pull sear spring. each 5-piece set is installed in a Colt frame and the trigger pull is set to 3.5lb. This set was designed for use in military leg competition 1911 pistols to provide a spur hammer with superior trigger pulls and longevity over the standard military hammers and sears. The hammer hooks are .023" long to provide a roll off trigger pull. They must be shortened to provide a crisp trigger pull. The sear does not have a relief angle to help provide a roll off trigger pull and must be restoned with a relief angle for a crisp trigger pull. The sear spring will need to be properly tensioned to give you the 3.5 lb. trigger pull in your pistol. Suitable for use only in match competition pistols.


I did not measure my KC trigger kit before installing.  If you contact KC Crawford directly I'm sure he'll tell you their nominal dimension (just call their number, he's easy to talk with).

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Re: Recommended drop-in trigger kit?

Post by kjanracing on Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:07 am

Thanks.  I installed a TR sear on my Range Officer.  Hammer hooks are ~.20".  The break is pretty clean, not quite glass rod crisp.  I don't really feel a "roll" or movement.  Maybe a misapplication on shortish hammer hooks trying to get a roll trigger?  I may shoot this for a while and then swap in the conventional sear and compare.
Kurt

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Re: Recommended drop-in trigger kit?

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