Slide stop pin fitting

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Slide stop pin fitting

Post by DavidR on Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:53 pm

To the gunsmiths, I have a old colt 70 series, the slide stop pin hole on the right side is larger than the slid stop pin and has a real sloppy fit, how should the pin fit, loose, or snug fit? is there a way to tighten up the hole, ive seen one done by welding and redrilling, is this the best way? or could a slide stop pin be welded to be larger then turned down to fit?

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Jon Eulette on Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:01 pm

Doesn't need to be tight. If barrel lugs are fit correctly the pin will press against the bottom of the slide stop pin hole.
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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Rob Kovach on Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:03 pm

I'm dealing with the same issue, only it's on the left side.  I talked it over with Joe Chambers and he wasn't keen on such a repair being successful, but a friend of mine is going to take a stab at it.

Joe said there are 2 ways to get that fixed, 1 is welding it and indexing the new hole off of the hole on the other side.  The other is cutting a bushing and cutting the slide to press-fit the bushing in place, then indexing the new hole off of the hole from the other side.

I believe he said the bushing was the most economical way.

Actually he said building a new lower was more economical....

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Jon Eulette on Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:20 pm

That's absolutely rediculous! There's not a 1911 out there (Cabot might be the exception) with perfect slide stop pin alignment.  When the match barrel is fit the pistolsmith will accomodate for the difference in tolerances. Les Baer used to make good frames. Now they are hit and miss. I've been building BE 19 11 ' s since 1989. Don't worry about it. If you're only getting one lug making contact,  blame it on who fit the barrel!
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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Rob Kovach on Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:24 pm

Let me be clear--Joe said that in the case of MY gun it was more economical to start over.  The left side hole is .213" and battered oblongated compared to the the right side at .201", the frame to slide fit has play left, right, up, and down, and the barrel lugs were cut....in an incorrect way by the builder who made the gun 35 years ago who nobody knows.

It's not about blame, I just want the thing to shoot decent again.

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Froneck on Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:32 pm

I've fixed a few guns like the ones described. If anyone remember the slide stop Kart used on his conversions I make one  similar to fit the holes in the frame that are cut so that they are round and inline.

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by LenV on Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:15 pm

I wonder if a Kreokote (sp) application might be the answer for some of the worn/misfit frames. I got to thinking about this when I saw a request for a lower on a different OP. You could basically take a cheapo frame have it coated (made pretty) re-drill and have a frame ready to tinker with. I was thinking about a dedicated lower but thought it might work for this OP also.

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Jerry Keefer on Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:45 pm

DavidR wrote:To the gunsmiths, I have a old colt 70 series, the slide stop pin hole on the right side is larger than the slid stop pin and has a real sloppy fit, how should the pin fit, loose, or snug fit? is there a way to tighten up the hole, ive seen one done by welding and redrilling, is this the best way? or could a slide stop pin be welded to be larger then turned down to fit?
Dave,
From a machinist's view point: If I were determined to save the frame. I would set the frame up and open the slide stop hole to .350
Make a .348/.349 diameter slug and silver solder it into the frame. Now you can relocate the slide stop C/L and bore a new hole to what ever dimension you want..Not much to it really, and it would be as durable as new and probably more accurately located. I would be reluctant to rely on press fit... That's asking to much for that area of the frame. The interior of the frame will need the bushing machined to original spec.. Again a simple project..

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Rob Kovach on Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:07 pm

oooh! thanks, jerry...we are just getting to the point in my project where we needed to decide whether to weld or make a slug.

Make a slug it is!

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Jerry Keefer on Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:22 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:oooh! thanks, jerry...we are just getting to the point in my project where we needed to decide whether to weld or make a slug.

Make a slug it is!
I would stick to silver for securing the slug. Silver will flow easily with .001 clearance.. Flux and clean, clean, and cleaner, when silver soldering... I even clean the oxide from the filler rod.
Since the existing hole is out of spec, I would shoot my C/L from the hammer pin hole, which is 2.973 and use the standard .450 deck height.

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by james r chapman on Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:04 pm

good info, Jerry.

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by jerry lehrer on Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:22 pm

Shooters,

Froneck has the right idea.  Making a 2 piece slide stop (3,if you add the E ring) Pachmayr used that type of slide stop in their accuracy jobs.

All my 1911 based pistols {except my Hardball gun) are set up that way.  The pin diameter can be whatever you need.

Jerry Lehrer

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Jerry Keefer on Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:44 pm

Well..That is an option, but..In the case of .213 which will probably not clean up until .215 or worse. ehhh..a lot of juggling will be required... Here's a pic of the Kart slide stop I have..If you look closely, the dimension changes can be seen. The frame ends are .200 and the lock up area is .195


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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Wobbley on Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:19 pm

If it was my pistol, I'd enlarge the hole to .283 making it straight and true with the other side.  Then I'd install a sleeve .281 OD x .200 ID coated with a 1250F silver braze paste.  The sleeve would be made of O1 drill rod.

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by james r chapman on Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:22 pm

If it was my pistol, I'd follow Jerry Keefer's advice.  Wink

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Froneck on Sun Mar 01, 2015 1:13 am

Being lazy, silver brazing will require heat of around 1200 Degrees F. Opening the slide stop pin hole to .348 would get me worrying about future cracking. Heat will require refinishing and a re-blue job. Lazy me would make a slide stop like the Kart in Jerry's photo
 If silver brazing I use a Eutetic (Now MG) flux covered rod. Has an orange colored flux coating, an ammonia like smell when melting and flows well. I use a #2 pencil  and shade the areas I don't want the flux to go.

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Jerry Keefer on Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:57 am

Nothing better than Eutectic. Future crack?? Anything can happen,but that's the cost and chance of doing business. If the hole cleans up at. 215 or .220, how big are we going to make the link pin hole on a .200 pin.?? I am not a fan of sloppy links. The .350 about max and could be reduced, but silver is a very tough bond. I have silvered much to many many frames without a problem. Bluing is a minor issue. The frame is junk as it is. So it's worth a try.

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Froneck on Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:23 am

I agree the frame is junk as it is. Something has to be done because it's useless for Bullseye as it is. I don't like a loose Slide stop pin, I fit mine rather tight. A snug fit but not so tight it can't be removed for cleaning. That's why I like the Kart 2 piece version so that the slide stop is free to move. The OP posted that the right side is .201 so being that the hole is usually .200 I assume it wore .001 on one side so to get it round again .202 might work, I'm sure it will not have to exceed .204. Easily fit thru the link and being that the left side is as bad as it is I'm thinking the lower lug on the barrel will need refitting too. So a .2035 Pin diameter to fit a .204 pin hole will work. Then there is that battered left side ( I assume that is the slide stop side) I agree it may take .215 or more to get it round and inline again but the pin can be made that diameter just long enough to fit the frame.
 Take the old slide stop and bore a hole in the same location the pin was, I use 3/16". Take the new pin made to fit the holes, turn it over and machine the other end for a nice slide fit on the slide stop so its flush with the frame when the pin is installed. Drill and tap for 5-40 or 5-44 ( I like 5-44 easier to tap) and use a Button-head socket cap screw with some loctite to hold the slide stop on the pin. If the larger hole were on the other side, it would make it a little more of a problem in that the slide stop would have to be removed to remove the pin for cleaning.
 I've had quite a few guys come to me and want frames welded that were cracked in that location, I just told them I don't have the equipment to do it. So making that hole nearly double the size even though it's silver soldered and added to what ever 1200 degrees might do to that rather thin area I would make a different slide stop pin if it were my gun.
 Would be interesting to know which way the hole is battered, forward, back or down???

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Jerry Keefer on Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:36 am

This proves.....That two heads are better than one... Dave, Rob, Froneck's solution is very doable and pracitical.. I would take the same care locating the C/Ls and go for it..Smile

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Wobbley on Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:44 pm

The only issue that I have with Froneck's solution is the amount of work and with each feature needed the chance of a screwup starts to mount.  With all the work he suggests it would be cheaper and significantly less risky to get a new frame and start over.

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Jerry Keefer on Sun Mar 01, 2015 1:00 pm

As Froneck and I know..That's a piece of cake for a machinist..I make the slide stops for Marvel and Karts out of old slide stops all the time.. It's really quick and simple.. Now the multi dimensional pin for the frames in question.... I would rough out on the lathe, and grind the finish sizes.. He may have a different approach. It depends on what fixtures and equipment is available.

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Froneck on Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:20 pm

Depending on when I making one. Usually I have a few made with D-2 tool steel turned a few thou. over size then grind on a very fine diamond wheel. I find the heat generated by the very fine Chinese wheel will create enough heat to surface harden the D-2. But the material is the most expensive of all. As usual I forget to make a few and I'm headed to Perry. Have so many other last minute things to do so I take a piece of 13/64 A2 Drill rod and 13/64 collet and get it to size with a very fine file. (I usually replace the pin before a big match and re-zero if necessary)
However for this application 1/4" Half Hard 4140 would be my choice if a grinder is not available. If the pin is heat treated it will have to be ground.
 I would use a tap drill slightly over size to make tapping easier. There is no strength needed, it just keeps the slide stop from falling off and a little loctite keeps the screw in place.
 To make the slide stop, I would put the pin in the 13/64 collet, drill the 3/16" hole deep enough so that it's past the back side about 1/8" and use a dremel cutoff to remove the pin. Touch it up to make the back flat. Get a button-head socked screw and assemble. Though any type screw will work in a pinch.
 Lots of good ways to skin this cat, any way that works is best!

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Jack H on Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:03 pm

After all this work, what is gained in accuracy, reliability, longevity, and National economy Smile  ?

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:16 pm

I have a gun with a great trigger that is essentially junk without this fix--fixing it and putting it back into service is the purpose of this exercise.

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

Post by Froneck on Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:40 pm

Well as far as getting a new frame that's going to be a lot more expensive. Frame alone will set you back at least $125+ You can't buy it so it must be ordered thru an FFL dealer. Getting it blued then a new plunger tube for the slide stop and safety.  I guess you can use the old one, I've done it by silver soldering it in rather than staking. Then it has to be fitted to the slide. Anyone with any machining ability can make that slide stop pin very easy, it don't have to be ground. 3 feet of half hard 1/4" 4140 is about $14 + shipping. Lots of material just in case the first few have a few oopes. Package of 10 Button-head screw is little more than $9 Probably total cost is less that $40
 Hands down, cheapest way is make the Kart style Slide stop. Hardest part is to get the holes in the frame bored in the correct location and inline. Not hard to do on a good Milling machine, I use a Jig Borer but it can be done on a lathe face plate.
 Accuracy?? Just as good as if the holes were never battered oversize. Lot better than it was! Lots of other things can effect accuracy, bushing, barrel, slide fit, etc., etc. However as far as the repair as good as can be done! And will last as long as if it were not damaged. If the gun was capable of shooting 2" at 50 yards the repair will return it to shooting 2" as long as that lower lug is fitted properly, that may have been battered too.

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Re: Slide stop pin fitting

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