Your thought on the Sig P210

What is everyone's opinion on the Sig P210 as a bullseye gun? Accuracy there for 50 yards?

With the right ammo, sure.  Buy why unless you already have one?

It's only suitable for centerfire (and maybe .22 if you spring for couple of thousand dollars for the conversion).

And you'll still need a .45 to do the entire 2700 match.

On the other hand, with one good .45, you can shoot centerfire and .45 match.

Probably more than you wanted.  But yes, most of the ones I have shoot were great, especially with the hotter loads.  One I shot did really great with TZZ stuff from the 90's at 50 yards.  

Too bad they can't be used for production class NRA, but they are CMP compliant last time I looked at the new list.

Want to give 9mm a whirl for EIC.

I have a Pardini GT for the 45 stage, but it didn't make the new EIC list.

Test the trigger weight first. Some models of the 210 won't make weight.

It can certainly clean the short line.  I farted around with one at the 25 yard line and had a VERY small group.

For the EIC (CMP) I'd give it a shot.  Costs almost as much as a custom Beretta but you can probably get one quicker.

If I were to try and pick a gun from the EIC list with the best chance of the best accuracy, that would be the one.

I have wanted a custom 92 for EIC for a while now. Seems that the Beretta 92 has done to Pistol EIC just what the AR15 did to Rifle EIC. Most of the high rankings on P100 are using 9mm, I would like to try it.

I have recently been proven wrong about my assumption of competition pistols for Bullseye. It's been my thought for a while now that if you were going to be competitive in bullseye you had to have a custom built pistol that was proven accurate at 50 yards. However, my Pardini GT in 45 has showed that to not be true. A stock factory pistol that I have shot in the mid 90's at 50 yards and that does it with ease.

My thought is maybe the Sig P210 is capable of the same accuracy as the Pardini GT.

Yes, I think the Sig would be capable of the same accuracy. 

By "that would be the one" I was referring to the Sig P210.  

As for the stock factory versus "custom" part, the Sig is probably in the same price range as a Les Baer wad .45.  (Haven't check recently.) 

For pistol, the "to be competitive" part is a lot more on the shooter than one would imagine from rifle experience. (Not taking anything at all from the requirement of ability of the shooter in rifle.) Its just that based on my experience, the variables and process for standing one-hand, un-supported pistol shooting tends to offset a lot of that final inch or more of ultimate accuracy for one gun versus another.  A lot of shooters get wrapped up in "accuracy" versus training and "usable accuracy".  

Dewey is a rifle shooter on this list and probably is the source for the best advise for competing in pistol from a rifle shooter perspective.  (And he's a pretty darn good pistol shooter).

I don't know how available they are here but the Sig 210 was made in a couple "target" variations for the Swiss competitors. I have not shot a 210 but the ones I handled in Switzerland all seemed to be very well made and the sights on the target models seemed to be well engineered and very usable. It might be the biggest let down in history but I would snap one up if I had a chance.

When the auto classes where new to PPC, many competitors sought out the P210. Availability and price discouraged many..  Those that did have P210s  didn't set the world on fire.. That could have been the result of a combination of variables..
The 1911 quickly dominated those classes. As you know, I am an absolute fanatic for all the mechanical accuracy the gun can produce..Even a tyro will shoot better with a super accurate gun with a good trigger, and smooth function. Shooting is a physical sport.. The less energy expended during the match, the more energy left for a strong finish. Everyone fatigues.. As your hold deteriorates, the tighter grouping gun will mitigate the error. A shot that breaks on the edge of the 10 ring, may still be a wide 10 or a tight 9.. but a 3 inch ten ring gun may well be an 8... Shoot the best equipment you can..

Jerry,
what do you think about the accuracy of a S&W Performance Center PPC9? They are a 5906 model and that is on "the list". They can be had for less than a P210.

robert84010 wrote:Jerry,
what do you think about the accuracy of a S&W Performance Center PPC9? They are a 5906 model and that is on "the list". They can be had for less than a P210.

Robert:
I have never had an occasion to thoroughly inspect one.
While working on my present project, Mod.52 I considered the possibility of utilizing the Briley style bushing used in the S&W PC guns... It would not adapt..

Has anyone tested the Sig P210 in a ransom rest? Maybe know of an article where one was.

The original Swiss P210s had very high production and accuracy standards. I've never Ransom Rested a P210 myself, but there are a couple of pictures of 25 m 10 shot groups about the size of a 1 Euro coin on Page 91 of Armbruster and Kessler's book. The load was Hornady ENC TCs over 4.4-4.6GR VV N330. I believe each of the military guns had to meet some high accuracy standard as well.

One of the experts on this is "Larvatus", who was on the forum a few weeks ago regarding Korth's new "1911". He has some articles about the 210 here:

http://larvatus.livejournal.com/33732.html

As far as trigger weights go, for the military P49s, the weights can be on the high side, 6-8 lbs. There is a "sport" spring that will bring the weight down (the civilian target pistols with these springs might be the ones Dewey is referring to). Also for the military pistols there is an adjustable sight made by Dobler. They were about $200 a few years ago, but are probably more now, the exchange rates being what they are.

I don't have any experience with the new version made by Sig Sauer. For the Neuhausen pistols everything is super expensive and kind of a pain to get into this country. It's definitely worth it if you're a collector, but I'm not sure you would save any money over a custom 1911 for competition.

Those 25 meter groups don't tell us much about what the gun will do at 50 yards.  We have local guys who praise their 952s and such but they never shoot more than 25 yards.  Can't say I have never seen a good Bullseye shooter with a euro centerfire gun in his hands.  However, make note that Doc Young did have a custom barrel in his 32.   I believe that if the 210 was an advantage they would be seen on the firing line.   I'm holding a P240 and GSP-C I bought in one of those, "Oooh Shiny," moments.  They sit in the safe while I prepare to shoot a 1911 based 38 Super centerfire gun in March.

Axehandle wrote:Those 25 meter groups don't tell us much about what the gun will do at 50 yards.  We have local guys who praise their 952s and such but they never shoot more than 25 yards.  Can't say I have never seen a good Bullseye shooter with a euro centerfire gun in his hands.  However, make note that Doc Young did have a custom barrel in his 32.   I believe that if the 210 was an advantage they would be seen on the firing line.   I'm holding a P240 and GSP-C I bought in one of those, "Oooh Shiny," moments.  They sit in the safe while I prepare to shoot a 1911 based 38 Super centerfire gun in March.

Reading Michael Zelany's article, it turns out the military P210s had to shoot within 5cm at 50m, so the 50 yd accuracy should be there. That said, I agree with every point you make. It's not that Euro centerfire guns aren't any good (they're often great)--it's just that it takes a special kind of masochist to want to buy a hard-to-find and expensive European gun, adapt it to Bullseye with dots, etc., find and buy all the expensive possible parts that could break, train himself to the grip and trigger, find all the components and do all the testing for ammo.....and then have to shoot the .45 1911 for the last third of the match anyway. Just getting good with the .22 and .45 is already kind of a full-time gig.

I've had good luck with those fifi euro guns. My Pardini GT 45 shoots pretty well on the 45 stage. My last match I scored an 856 with it, and that's with 230's on the short line. Compared to the 1911 replacement parts are astronomical.

I just wanted to try the 9mm for EIC, and thought the Sig P210 would be ready to go out of the box.

4K  can get a custom 38 super for that.

I think it would be a neat gun to shoot for Legs with, but the dominance of 9MM you observe in the P100 is mostly the result of the Military teams shooting them. Most of us don't have an armorer that hands us a custom built gun and a pile of ammo.

I have a P210 target model and am trying to work up loads for its 1:10 barrel.....suggestions on bullet weight?

Hey Dan.  The P210 is a nice pistol.  I have owned three (P210-6, P210 Legend & P49).  The 6 and Legend are gone, however I kept the P49 (the Swiss military version of the P210).  The fact is any P210 (and MOST 9mm semi-auto's), will shoot better than any shooter if placed in a good rest.  It's more about what you're comfortable with, that is, what YOU feel better holding/shooting.  I've not shot a Pardini however from what I've red, they're probably be as accurate as a P210 (as may be a S&W 52, Glock 34, HK or whatever), it's all about what you want.  I say - go for it  - you only live once (maybe?) - if you want a P210, go get it! (though as I do, keep that fact away from the wife).

Hoping to revive this thread a bit. Does anyone know what it takes to increase the trigger weight of the new stock P210 from 3.5 to 4lb to make weight for cmp matches?

I don't have a trigger gauge, but my trigger weight feels as thought it went up after I screwed in the mainspring stop a couple turns.

One problem that I see with using one of the new American P210 pistols for EIC is that the stock grips probably aren't CMP legal and there are no aftermarket alternatives. I suppose you could carve away the palm swell and the flare at the bottom of the grip but I would have a hard time doing that to a $1500 pistol.

I'm looking at alternatives for the grips.  I have a 3D printer and so I've experimented that way, but mine is low quality enough that the prints don't always turn out right. 

The model I'm using was actually downloaded from (IIRC) Grabcad.  It was  a complete model of a P210 that appears to be correct as the grip models lined up except for the backstrap portion of the grip that needs adjustment.  I'm not quite there yet.  

Given that no other dimensions changed, I suppose you could get a set of legends grips.  The problem of course is price vs benefit.  Is it worth it to get grips that, even with modification may not work?