Blank target point of aim?

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Blank target point of aim?

Post by beeser on Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:08 am

I'm a little confused, what is your point of aim on a blank target?  This has to do with the first exercise out of the USMC Pistol Team Workbook where it is instructing you to shoot at a blank target to establish a maximum group size.  If there's no reference point or POA then how do you maintain a group?

beeser

Posts : 920
Join date : 2014-06-19

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by SMBeyer on Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:11 pm

You will be surprised at how well you will group.  It is an iron sight exercise.  WATCH the front sight and let your subconcious pick the spot to hold.  Trust it and just shoot.  Look only at the front sight and ignore the target.  The black spot is called the aiming distraction for a reason.  Try not to let your eyes go to the target.  It's not easy to do and takes practice.

Scott

SMBeyer

Posts : 239
Join date : 2011-12-07
Age : 44
Location : Southern Illinois

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by BE Mike on Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:18 pm

Ah, that's the point grasshopper, one doesn't aim for a point on the target when shooting bullseye pistol. Smile

BE Mike

Posts : 1145
Join date : 2011-07-29
Location : Indiana

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by john bickar on Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:39 pm

BE Mike wrote:Ah, that's the point grasshopper, one doesn't aim for a point on the target when shooting bullseye pistol. Smile

john bickar

Posts : 518
Join date : 2011-07-09
Location : Menlo Park, CA

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by CR10X on Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:12 pm

I guess I'm one of the few old enough to get the "grasshopper" reference.

However, no matter what your generation.  John and BE Mike are pointing us in the right direction.

My personal opinion is if we did not have the black circle to distract us from the path; somebody would probably have shot a 2700 by now.....

Specifically, I don't "aim" for a point on the target.  I "aim" to keep the pistol completely parallel to the intended path.  Its hard to wobble outside the 10 ring, its incredibly easy to angle the path into the 5 ring.  And the difference is just a few of thousandths of an inch at the barrel.  

Just do your best to keep the pistol perfectly aligned front and rear sights within the general area of that big white space out there on the target.  Or keep the dot as smooth in its wobble as possible in the general center of that big white space.  

The purpose of using a blank target is to give us a better idea (that is help us see) of what we a doing to the gun during the shot, without the distraction and camouflage of the black hole of distraction out there on the target.

As matter of fact, I did blank target at 25 with the revolver at the indoor range today. Just shooting up some older loads that didn't quite work out, and just working at seeing the front sight again (new glasses).  Of course the guy next to me didn't get it either and he's probably still trying to figure out how you get a bunch of .38 holes that close together without "something to aim at".

PS:

John, I noticed you changed your location?

CR10X

Posts : 356
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by john bickar on Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:59 pm

CR10X wrote:PS:
John, I noticed you changed your location?
I've been in Menlo Park for almost 8 years now. 

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

john bickar

Posts : 518
Join date : 2011-07-09
Location : Menlo Park, CA

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by CR10X on Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:10 pm

I was comparing to "target talk" location :-) 

“Time is an illusion.” 
― Albert Einstein

CR10X

Posts : 356
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by mspingeld on Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:34 pm

Very interesting quote: "it's hard to wobble outside the 10 ring, its incredibly easy to angle the path into the 5 ring."
I try to keep the dot perfectly centered in the tube. Is this a valid parallel?

mspingeld

Posts : 187
Join date : 2014-04-19
Age : 56
Location : New Jersey

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by john bickar on Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:36 am

CR10X wrote:“Time is an illusion.” 
― Albert Einstein
"Lunchtime doubly so."
-- Douglas Adams

john bickar

Posts : 518
Join date : 2011-07-09
Location : Menlo Park, CA

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by Tom Jadlos on Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:00 am

I understand the point of the exercise for open sights.  Does it also apply to shooting a dot?  Thanks,  Tom

Tom Jadlos

Posts : 29
Join date : 2012-01-31

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by CR10X on Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:06 am

I try to keep the dot perfectly centered in the tube. Is this a valid parallel?

Yes, in general.  Keeping the dot in the center keeps you in the best place for the scope optics.  The real question is how is the dot moving and how is that an indicator of how good the results are going to be?  To find out, it might be interesting to do some bench work.  

First get on the bench with the gun supported and the dot on the target and centered in the tube.  Then, slowly angle the gun to the left, right, up and down, like that trigger press does when its not straight to the rear.  See how quickly the dot moves out of the black. 

Now do the same thing, but keep the bore / gun as parallel as you can with the intended path to the center of the target.  See how the dot moves in relation to the target now. 

What we are doing to the gun "angle wise" is much easier to see with open sights since they are attached to the gun. The single point of the dot requires some work to separate "wobble" from "angling the gun" issues. And why I recommend training with both types of sights. 

That way, we can learn from the first one what we don't want to see and from the second test, what is OK to see.  And by actually shooting off the bench with the sights or dot's not "perfectly" in the center, we can see what is acceptable for a "10" and what is not. 

All this would be a moot point if we could keep the gun still, but since we can't we need to find out what movement is ok to accept and what is not. Otherwise, we'd never activate the trigger, or really jerk it trying to pick off the shot. 


(Since John used my next time quote, I'll have to go to this one). 

While a person cannot have more than 1440 minutes a day, a clever person makes more time by using OPM or Other People Minutes.  (Unknown)


Last edited by CR10X on Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:20 am; edited 1 time in total

CR10X

Posts : 356
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by mspingeld on Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:58 am

I think it's important to keep the dot centered. If the dot leaves the center but the shooter compensates by moving the whole arm at the shoulder, a good shot is still possible but with bad form, thereby encouraging bad habits. Possible, but not easy, with iron sites. Focusing on keeping the dot in the middle is the equivalent of maintaining site alignment. Am I right?

mspingeld

Posts : 187
Join date : 2014-04-19
Age : 56
Location : New Jersey

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by CR10X on Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:22 am

For me its good to shoot on a blank target with dots as well.  Removing the black really helps to keep from getting "chicken finger".  Try it as a exercise for timed and rapid.

CR10X

Posts : 356
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by jmdavis on Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:06 am

I shoot a blank target at the start of every training session. Many years ago I discovered that if I shot the Mark I Ruger before beginning to shoot the Glock for IDPA training, I shot better. 

Now while training with the .22 I try to start with a blank target unless we are doing group drills.

jmdavis

Posts : 873
Join date : 2012-03-24
Location : Virginia

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by beeser on Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:24 pm

The first time I came across shooting at a blank target was while reading The Pistol Shooter's Treasury.  I tried it soon after but gave up probably because I didn't understand the concept.  I still don't fully understand how it can help other than diverting attention away from the target and focusing on the front sight.  It still doesn't make sense how a group can be formed when there is no aim point.  I'll try again tomorrow by just focusing on the front sight and pointing the gun toward the general center of the target and see what happens.

beeser

Posts : 920
Join date : 2014-06-19

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by kczerwin on Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:06 pm

I struggled with this too.  But after struggling even more through a poor season on the firing line, I went back to it.  Try this if it will make it easier.  Take an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of white paper and tack it to a piece of brown cardboard.    Shoot a string looking at the paper.  Then shoot a string focusing intensely on the front sight all the way through the shot.

See what happens.  And Good luck Grasshopper.  I hope someday they let me out of the temple.

kczerwin

Posts : 18
Join date : 2012-08-30
Location : Central WI

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by CR10X on Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:07 pm

Yes, to what you said, but it is also much more.  (And yes, some people need to see it done in order to start the process, don't feel bad about not getting it like the book says.  Some things in bullseye ARE much easier if you can see them and talk to someone at the same time.) 

Try thinking of it this way.  This is an exercise to help learn how to complete the shot process with fewer distractions.  We're not aiming for "point" on the target.  No one can make or sustain that perfect picture of exactly motionless front sight, exactly one light bar under the black for a perfect sub-six hold.  The gun is almost always moving in some form.

For a blank target drill, we are taking away the distraction of that "perfect point" and giving ourselves a break. We're holding the aligned sights or dot within an area near the center.  Since we are not trying to keep the gun still for a single point, we can pay more attention to keeping the gun parallel to the intended path AND feel more comfortable in operating the trigger without hesitation or starting and stopping or jerking it.  

But we are not just blasting away.  We are looking for perfect sight alignment, watching how the dot or sights move and trying to reduce any extra motion caused by completing the trigger process.  

These things all coming together will create a group.  Some shooters will actually have smaller groups than they get with having a "bullseye" in the picture.  Just remember everything happens at the gun.  

And we can take the benefit learning how to keep the gun positioned better during the trigger operation when we go back to shooting on a target with a bullseye on it. 

Give it a try.

CR10X

Posts : 356
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by Jack H on Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:51 pm

LtC Miller used to stick a full face target back a couple feet in front of my HS just before I was to break my first shot.  Meaning I was in position, on TF target, and on the front sight.  Then I would shoot my string through the blank.  The results at 25 yds were still quite good.  The first time we did this taught me a lot about position and sight alignment.

Jack H

Posts : 971
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 67
Location : Duckburg, Orygun

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by TexasShooter on Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:01 pm

beeser wrote:The first time I came across shooting at a blank target was while reading The Pistol Shooter's Treasury.  I tried it soon after but gave up probably because I didn't understand the concept.  I still don't fully understand how it can help other than diverting attention away from the target and focusing on the front sight.  It still doesn't make sense how a group can be formed when there is no aim point.  I'll try again tomorrow by just focusing on the front sight and pointing the gun toward the general center of the target and see what happens.

I don't fully understand it either but I know it works. At our Zins-Moody clinic Andy had us start on a blank target (back of a B-8 target). I shot 10 shots thinking what a silly idea this was, shooting without a reference point of any kind to aim at. Focused on shot process, trigger press, nothing to look at but the front sight, no room left for thinking. Shot about a 5 inch group, my best one-handed group up to that point.

Of course then we turned the durn things over and shot at the regular target, my brain took over and I spent the rest of the weekend yanking 'em all over the paper. Still working on it but at least I know my body is capable if I can turn my brain off...

Clay

TexasShooter

Posts : 72
Join date : 2014-01-26
Age : 57
Location : Midland, TX

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by Ed Hall on Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:45 pm

Can I join the party?  In case the answer is yes, I'll try to add some info in hopes it's valuable:

Most everyone has heard the description, "Align the sights and cause the hammer to fall without disturbing that alignment."

I prefer rephrasing the above to, "Align the sights and cause the hammer to fall while maintaining that alignment."  I prefer it because to me it is the more positive way of phrasing it.  However, in this case, my version falls short of the true meaning.

At its core, the real understanding comes from learning how to accept the natural movement of the sights, when held in alignment, both in relationship within the sighting system and when the "distracting bull" is added and cuasing the hammer to fall without disturbing that movement pattern.  As has been mentioned, the important activity is happening at the gun and the sights allow you to refine that activity.  By removing the bull, the activity at the gun is more easily refined and the fact that that activity is more important is more readily recognized.

There is movement in the entire system.  The dot sights seem to magnify that movement, but keen observers will see with precision the activity of open sights as well.  With dots, the location of the dot within the tube is not as important as how it got to that location.  If the dot moved from the center to another location as you operated the trigger, it is more detrimental than if the dot was sitting in that location all along.  Yes, I recommend centering the dot within the tube so you have a reference similar to open sights.  I also recommend you stay focused on the dot until you can use it accurately to "see" what is happening at the gun.

The blank target drill actually does more than one thing and sometimes that is confusing.  One thing it does is it allows you to move to the sights and really see how the trigger operation affects the natural movement at the gun.  Another is to show that the trigger operation is the most important.  It also allows you to see what uninterrupted trigger operation can do for the group and it lets you see what occurs when you accept your hold.

Now for some particulars of what positives to look for in your training:

-Learn the natural movement of the sights within themselves (showing the activity at the gun) and in relation to downrange.

-Learn what the sights look like when you operate the trigger.  Learn how to operate the trigger without disturbing the natural movement you learned from the last bullet.

-The above should be ingrained through dry fire and then validated via the blank target drill, in which you again look for undisturbed natural movement throughout the shot.

One more note that has been mentioned before, but I don't think it was highlighted enough:  You don't aim at any point.  You let your hold float over an "area" of aim and then cause the hammer to fall without disturbing the natural movement while you are holding within that "area."  If you do anything to disturb that natural pattern, the shot will be less than perfect.  As to the area, just hold where it seems comfortable on the big blank surface.  For dot shooters bring your focus back into the scope so you are less inclined to aim at previous holes.

Via dry fire and blank targets, learn the trigger operation that allows the sighting imagery to be undisturbed throughout the shot and then use that process when you add in the bull.

Hopefully I've not strayed too far...

Ed Hall

Posts : 363
Join date : 2012-09-11
Location : Adirondack Mountains

http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by john bickar on Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:59 pm

As an extension of this drill: Erich Buljung used to have us shoot at just the backstop. No distractions at all, just pure concentration on sight alignment and trigger control.

john bickar

Posts : 518
Join date : 2011-07-09
Location : Menlo Park, CA

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by Rob Kovach on Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:32 am

beeser wrote:pointing the gun toward the general center of the target
There....you do get it!

Rob Kovach
Admin

Posts : 2552
Join date : 2011-06-14
Age : 43
Location : Brooklyn, WI

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by beeser on Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:33 pm

Maybe my expectations were too high but shooting at a blank target didn't seem to produce any meaningful results.  The first target used was a blank piece of  8 1/2" x 11" white paper over light brown paper that covered most of the white backerboard.  I concentrated on sight alignment while pointing the gun in the general direction of the white paper.  Groups didn't seem to improve.  I then figured that the white paper was drawing my attention away from the sights as before when trying to aim for the bullseye so I used another blank piece of light brown paper, which somewhat blended in with the berm beyond.  Bullet holes also didn't seem to show up as much as the white paper.  I figured that the holes might also be distraction and act as an aiming point.  Anyway, I think the new background helped me focus more on sight alignment and for a while it seemed like I could get a clear sight picture (of the sights) when the gun fired, not always but most of the time.  This may be the beginning of understanding what you guys refer to as "calling a shot".  Maybe not but I recall a few images where the sights were out of alignment and the shot ended up in that direction.  Is it really possible to see the sights that clearly when the gun goes off?  Sorry, I digress.  So, anyway, the groups didn't improve even with the more obscure background and I don't know if anything was accomplished today.  I plan to read the comments/suggestions in this thread again and try to apply them in a few days.  If anyone spots a flaw in my application as described here I would appreciate knowing about it.

I wanted to also mention before closing that although I don't feel much progress was made today I also feel that I'm on the cusp of a breakthrough.  I don't know what's preventing me from pushing this thing over the edge but I'm now confident that it's possible to stay in the 9 ring or better.  I also know for certain that it's not the gun holding me back.  I decided today to suspend shooting any of my other guns including the .22lr and concentrate on the .45 1911.  I'm also going to put more effort into my dry fire sessions.  This is another area that I honestly never understood the importance of or appreciated.  Yes, I know many of you said I should've been doing this from the start.  Sorry for rambling on like this.  It was just one of those days.

beeser

Posts : 920
Join date : 2014-06-19

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by rreid on Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:54 pm

45 holes are too easy to see and aim at. Try it with the 22, first. I use the back of a full face target. And yes, you should be able to see the sights that clearly when the gun goes off. That's how you call your shots. Reread what Ed Hall wrote above. Dry fire against a blank white wall so you can see what is happening with the sights when the hammer falls.

rreid

Posts : 169
Join date : 2012-02-06

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by CR10X on Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:54 pm

Anyway, I think the new background helped me focus more on sight alignment and for a while it seemed like I could get a clear sight picture (of the sights) when the gun fired, not always but most of the time.  This may be the beginning of understanding what you guys refer to as "calling a shot".  "Maybe not but I recall a few images where the sights were out of alignment and the shot ended up in that direction.  Is it really possible to see the sights that clearly when the gun goes off? 

We now have something to work from and you have the actual information in your hand so to speak. "Hallelujah! Holy s*&t! Where's the Tylenol?"

And now we are getting to the crux of the matter and a potential breakthrough.  "A few images" should be ALL.   And yes, you need to and can see the sights that clearly when the gun goes off.  Yes, that is "calling the shot".  Yes, that is the part of the purpose of this exercise.    

This is the single biggest obstacle that new shooters have to overcome.  The difference between being a shooter and getting to Master.   You are on the way to actually seeing the shot (as a lot of posts have been getting to). 

Eventually, you should be able to see the muzzle flash silhouetting the front sight for the shot.  But the point is you are now seeing more than you were before.

(And by the way, things can come slowly in bullseye.  I took two years working to focusing on the target versus the dot and then back to the dot versus the target for 2 more before making a decision.  Take your time, it might not happen overnight).

One last suggestion, stick with the .22 while learning to see the front sight at the firing for each shot.  Its easier to keep focus during that final millisecond to get that sight picture engraved in your mind. 

Basically, I think you had a GREAT day.

CR10X

Posts : 356
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: Blank target point of aim?

Post by Sponsored content Today at 9:58 pm


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum