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classification question

Post by orpheoet on 2/12/2015, 11:57 pm

I'm a bit confused as to how the indoor/outdoor classifications work. I think I just moved up to sharpshooter indoor. I'm a Marksman outdoor. At the next outdoor match will i be with marksmen, or sharpshooters? Thanks
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Re: classification question

Post by Rob Kovach on 2/13/2015, 12:01 am

Because your indoor classification is higher, when you shoot outdoors, you can be either one you choose.  It's legal for you to class up, but not down.  When you shoot indoors, you cannot class down to marksman.
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Re: classification question

Post by LenV on 2/13/2015, 11:16 am

There seems to be some confusion about classification in general by new shooters. I would like to mention a couple of them. 1. If you have never fired in a match your classification is TYRO and you must shoot your first match either in the TYRO class or unclassified Master if they don't have a Tyro class.  2. After you shoot your first match and before you get 360 rounds down range you are then officially "Unclassified" and shoot in the Master class. 3. At the completion of the match in which you go over or reach 360 rounds you now have a temporary classification (using your book) and the NRA will give you a classification card. Like Rob says. You may choose to shoot above your classification in any discipline but you don't have to shoot in a higher class if your classified lower in the one your shooting.

Len
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Re: classification question

Post by BE Mike on 2/13/2015, 11:31 am

Your next outdoor match you shoot as a Marksman, as long as your classification is still current. You will compete as a Sharpshooter at the indoor matches. As already stated, one can always opt compete in a higher classification.
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Re: classification question

Post by Motorcycle_dan on 2/13/2015, 12:39 pm

First I agree with what has already been posted.  You should be SS at indoor matches and MK at outdoor matches when they begin.    However,
Reading the NRA rulebook section 3. Equipment and ammunition, last sentance in first paragraph.  "Competitor's classification in the highest division will be used in competition."
Since I'm trying to compete in the metallic division, I now have an Expert card in Expert.  However since I'm ranked HM in open division indoor, I have to compete in the HM class. 

Not sure that was the intended purpose of the rule.  I find my scores with iron sights creeping back up but not as good as my dot scores.  Wanted to compete in production class as well and earned a SS card before the end of the outdoor season.  I can't come up with a .22 that meets the "No single action semi-auto" rule and I can it shoot well.  I have a revolver that isn't too bad but not really good.

So for me I have classification cards for:
Open divison indoor HM
Open division outdoor MA
Metallic division indoor EX
Production division outdoor SS
However I am classed with the MA outdoor and HM indoor
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Re: classification question

Post by Ed Hall on 2/13/2015, 2:00 pm

OldMaster65 wrote:There seems to be some confusion about classification in general by new shooters. I would like to mention a couple of them. 1. If you have never fired in a match your classification is TYRO and you must shoot your first match either in the TYRO class or unclassified Master if they don't have a Tyro class.  2. After you shoot your first match and before you get 360 rounds down range you are then officially "Unclassified" and shoot in the Master class. 3. At the completion of the match in which you go over or reach 360 rounds you now have a temporary classification (using your book) and the NRA will give you a classification card. Like Rob says. You may choose to shoot above your classification in any discipline but you don't have to shoot in a higher class if your classified lower in the one your shooting.

Len
Sorry, but this is not correct!  The purpose of the Score Record Book (SRB) is to allow you to compete in a class based on your present capability.  After your very first match, you (the new competitor) fill in the SRB with the appropriate info and use that to show your "temporary" classification until you get your permanent one.  You do not have to wait for 360 shots to start using your temporary classification:

"19.14 Score Record Book - (Temporary Classification) - A
Score Record Book will be obtained by each unclassified competi-
tor from the Official Referee, Supervisor, Tournament Statistical
Officer, or Sanctioned League Secretary at the time the competi-
tor competes in the first tournament. All scores fired will be re-
corded by the competitor in each NRA competition (except Postal
Matches) until such time as an Official NRA Classification Card
is received. The competitor will total all scores and divide that
total by the number of 10-shot strings represented. The average
so obtained will determine the competitor’s NRA Classification at
that time (see Rule 19.15 for average score for each classification).

Individual and team scores fired by the competitor during at least
one tournament (Rule 1.1), or from the most recent league match
(Rule 1.6(h) must be posted in the Score Record Book to estab-
lish a Temporary Classification. The Score Record Book will be
presented by the holder at all NRA competition entered until the
competitor’s Official NRA Classification Card becomes effective.

Note: It is the competitor’s responsibility to obtain the Score Re-
cord Book, enter scores, and present it at each tournament until
his Official NRA Classification Card becomes effective. When
the NRA Classification Card becomes effective the Score Record
Book becomes obsolete."

Edit: to be fair, the first part is correct about being a TYRO or an Unclassified Master for your first match.  However, I had a ref tell me that a new shooter we brought was not actually a Tyro because he had been firing in a BE league, even though the league was unsanctioned.

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Re: classification question

Post by Ed Hall on 2/13/2015, 2:17 pm

A competitor may enter a competition in a class higher than their classification, except for High Master per rule 19.8.  If a competitor does not have a classification for a particular discipline, they may use a classification from another per rule 19.6.  This is known as an Assigned Classification.  In the case of the OP, (s)he would fire Indoor as a Sharpshooter (or, higher) and Outdoor as a Marksman (or, higher), as had previously been posted.

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Re: classification question

Post by LenV on 2/13/2015, 8:03 pm

Ed,

   Your right. I was wrong about having to shoot 360 rounds before getting a temporary classification. The only way a person would shoot as unclassified Master in his second match is if he/she showed up without their SRB. Which actually happens more then it should.

Dan,

   I read it the way you read it but I think they meant it only for the first match you fire. You should be able to do a SRB like anyone else starting in a new to you division....But, they really don't seem to consider shooting outdoor metallic or outdoor open as different divisions. Which kind of ruins the desire to shoot metallic or production for me. One of those things they have to straighten out.
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Re: classification question

Post by CR10X on 2/14/2015, 8:02 am

Ed is correct.  A lot of shooters get confused by the requirements at specific matches (like the National Matches, see below) and think they apply at all matches. 


Motorcycle_Dan: 

My assumption for the following: "Competitor’s classification in the highest Division will be used in competition." has to be read in conjunction with the previous sentence. In the previous sentence, "The competitors aggregate will be determined by the highest division they compete in,....."; it is apparent that if the shooter shoots Open .22, Metallic Centerfire and Production .45: the aggegrate would be for Open Division only.  And the last sentence confirms the classification for Open would apply to the match (all other aggs as well).  Please do not confuse "Division" with "Classification" or "Class".  Therefore if you are Expert Production and you shoot Production for all 3 aggs (.22, CF, .45) then you can compete as an Expert.  However if you do Metallic or Open for any agg (and you were Master in either), then that Master classification would apply for the match.  This is supported by 19.7 which in part reads, "A competitor’s classification will not change during a tournament. Competitors will enter a tournament under their correct classification and fire the entire tournament in that class."   Now all the above is my assumption based on my reading, let the discussion commence.  
 
It is important to have the rules and the match bulletin in order to be prepared for that specific match.  If the bulletin does state specific conditions or options allowed by the rules; like which classifications are used or "no alibi" [Rule 10.10 (b)]; then those conditions will apply.  

[Which by the way is screwed up in the current rules version as the "Example" language in 10.10 (b) belongs at the end of 10.10 (a) or reformatted as separate paragraph, since there is no refire in 10.10 (b).   


NRA National Match Bulletin 2014: 
Competitor Classifications 1. Temporary Classifications: NRA Pistol Rule 19.14 may NOT be used. 2. Assigned Classifications: NRA Pistol Rule 19.6 may be used. 3. All competitors who do not hold an NRA Official Classification, either in the type of competition being fired, or an Assigned Classification according to NRA Pistol Rules 19.6, 19.16, 19.17 & 19.21, will be placed in the Master class. 4. Competitors may be required to present an Official NRA Classification Card at the Entry Office before picking up their competitor packet.


Last edited by CR10X on 2/15/2015, 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: classification question

Post by Ed Hall on 2/14/2015, 7:25 pm

Thanks for mentioning the National Matches Program reference that prohibits temporary classifications for that match, Cecil.  I did wonder if I should mention that exception by the program, but opted not to.  It's good you brought it up to show how some Match Programs can be adjusted for specific events.

I will also mention that the year I made High Master, I had entered as Master, since I hadn't received my new card yet.  When I got to Camp Perry, I tried to change my classification to High Master and per rules 19.7 and 19.8, they would not move me up until I brought them my new classification card to prove High Master status.

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Re: classification question

Post by KenO on 2/15/2015, 5:36 pm

Ed, that must have been a while back, or maybe it was the person at the window.  The same thing happened to me for Long Range Rifle last year, I entered by mail, as I always do so I can send in NRA points. Then, just before I left for Perry I check the classification lookup and see I made HM. I knew it was coming from my scores at the Midwest Palma Championship in Lodi.  That was in June, they were a couple months getting it up online and much later sending my card.

The effective date would be after the Nationals, so I knew I could still enter as a Master. When I got to Perry and was at the window getting my packet, I said I want to shoot in my new classification. She said "no problem", she upgraded me on the computer, and that was it.

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Re: classification question

Post by Froneck on 2/22/2015, 1:44 pm

Technically showing up with out your SRB you have to shoot unclassified again but I don't think any match director is going to request to see it. The score will go to the NRA though I'm not sure what would happen if your Temp classification was much higher than what classification you signed up as especially if you did a lot of winning.
 BTW there is a Perry cut-off date so that if you did fire a match after that date it will not effect the Perry Classification even if it did raise your classification. At least there was for Pistol

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Re: classification question

Post by s1120 on 2/24/2015, 11:19 am

"19.14 Score Record Book - (Temporary Classification) - A
Score Record Book will be obtained by each unclassified competi-
tor from the Official Referee, Supervisor, Tournament Statistical
Officer, or Sanctioned League Secretary at the time the competi-
tor competes in the first tournament. All scores fired will be re-
corded by the competitor in each NRA competition (except Postal
Matches) until such time as an Official NRA Classification Card
is received. The competitor will total all scores and divide that
total by the number of 10-shot strings represented. The average
so obtained will determine the competitor’s NRA Classification at
that time (see Rule 19.15 for average score for each classification).

Individual and team scores fired by the competitor during at least
one tournament (Rule 1.1), or from the most recent league match
(Rule 1.6(h) must be posted in the Score Record Book to estab-
lish a Temporary Classification. The Score Record Book will be
presented by the holder at all NRA competition entered until the
competitor’s Official NRA Classification Card becomes effective.


I hope Im not off topic, or diverting a thread, but im wondering something...

I shot my first match last year. Being the fact that I was kinda lost, and not sure of what was going on, and all the hubbub, I did not get/ask for a book, nor remembered to record my scores. Im now listed as unclassified as per the NRA. Its really not a huge issue with me at this time, but does that affect me at my next match other then having to be shooting with the masters??

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Re: classification question

Post by Ed Hall on 2/24/2015, 12:19 pm

Short answer - No.

Longer answer - Find your Results Bulletin and ask for a temporary book at your next match.  Fill it in with your previous score and use it to enter.  I would really not expect any of our Match Directors or Referees to find fault with that (other than at Camp Perry), since it is in the spirit of the rules.  If there is something wrong, I'm sure I'll hear of it...

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Re: classification question

Post by s1120 on 2/24/2015, 12:30 pm

Camp Perry is not on my list for some time!!  Im just happy to hit up a few matches a year for now

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