Accuracy in range of loads?

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Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by beeser on Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:22 pm

I ran across a post a while ago (can't seem to find it again) that recommended using a powder that was accurate within a wide range of loads, somewhere between 0.4 to 0.5 grains.  I recall the poster mentioning that Bullseye was not one of those powders.  Can someone elaborate on this a little more if there's any validity to it?

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by Wobbley on Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:27 pm

There is for rifle. The powders that seem to fit this description are medium speed (for the cartridge). Maybe this is one reason 231 is so popular for the commercial loaders.

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by beeser on Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:09 pm

Wobbley wrote:There is for rifle.  The powders that seem to fit this description are medium speed (for the cartridge).  Maybe this is one reason 231 is so popular for the commercial loaders.
That's the powder that was mentioned but I recall pistols were discussed, .45 ACP specifically and loaded with somewhere in the range of 4.3 to 4.7 grs. of 231.

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by DavidR on Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:02 pm

He is full of **** to put it mildly, thousands of shooters and cleaned targets to prove bullseye is not only accurate in a 45 but one of the most accurate.

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by james r chapman on Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:51 pm

Bullseye's survived for well over a century because of its success.

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by beeser on Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:33 pm

DavidR wrote:He is full of **** to put it mildly, thousands of shooters and cleaned targets to prove bullseye is not only accurate in a 45 but one of the most accurate.
I don't think he was stating or even suggesting that Bullseye wasn't accurate.  Rather that its accuracy may be less tolerant of load variations as opposed to other powders like possibly Win 231.  If true it would seem to me to be a good alternative to Bullseye especially considering the potential variations with some powder dispensers.


Last edited by beeser on Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by james r chapman on Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:21 pm

The powder is Unique...

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by DavidR on Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:08 pm

w231 has been used in bullseye for many years, just another good target powder, try it and see if it works for you

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by beeser on Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:22 pm

DavidR wrote:w231 has been used in bullseye for many years, just another good target powder, try it and see if it works for you
I'm sure it would DavidR.  I was more interested in learning about the notion that some powders may be less susceptible to load variations.  It's something that I had not heard about before.

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by DavidR on Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:16 am

not sure what your looking for, a 45 bullet can be accurate at more than one speed, thus more than one load with everything else being the same. I ransome tested many loads, you could get good accuracy with bullseye 3.6 up to 4.2 in a 185 lswc, groups would vary slightly but all were very good.

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by dronning on Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:29 am

There are many powders that may hit their accuracy long before their max load is hit and some of them will maintain accuracy to max load.

I load Clays* @ 3.6gr with a 200gr LSWC.  I've tested it to 4.1gr and it maintains the same accuracy. 

- Dave

*Standard Clays not Universal or International Clays

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by LenV on Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:55 pm

IMHO I think what Beeser is asking but what no one has answered yet is... If I have a bad powder dispenser or poor quality control what powder is the most forgiving with random powder charges? I may be wrong and I sorta put that in my own words but I think that gets right to the heart of his OP. I could be wrong. I am sure he will straighten me out if I was.


Len     Unique is probably the answer as mentioned above

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by Wobbley on Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:13 pm

What he is asking is if there's a powder or powders that will allow a variance in powder charging and not affect accuracy. Like will (say) Powder x group well AND to the same point of impact with a variance of (say) .4 grains. So a 4.0 load can vary to 3.8 to 4.2 and still be as accurate. I think there are powders that can do that. But I can't tell him which. I think 700X is one but I have no data to back it up.

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by beeser on Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:50 pm

Wobbley wrote:What he is asking is if there's a powder or powders that will allow a variance in powder charging and not affect accuracy.  Like will (say) Powder x group well AND to the same point of impact with a variance of (say) .4 grains.  So a 4.0 load can vary to 3.8 to 4.2 and still be as accurate. I think there are powders that can do that. But I can't tell him which.  I think 700X is one but I have no data to back it up.
Thanks Wobbley!  That's exactly what I was attempting to ask.  The idea or thought was not mine originally as stated at the top of this thread but a recollection of an earlier post by someone else that I now can't seem to find.

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by james r chapman on Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:52 pm

I've gotten a headache...

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by LenV on Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:05 pm

I said the same thing Wobbely said. I just didn't move my hands back and forth when I said it. How's that headache?

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by beeser on Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:31 pm

OldMaster65 wrote:I said the same thing Wobbely said. I just didn't move my hands back and forth when I said it. How's that headache?
No, (james r. chapman look away) Wobbley got it right but you get honorable mention for being close and making an effort.  Now I'm starting to get a headache.

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by Rob Kovach on Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:43 am

Old Master 65 wrote:I just didn't move my hands back and forth when I said it
HAHAHAHAH....I cracked up and thought of this when I read that post.

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by r_zerr on Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:15 pm

Many years ago, a rifle shooter named Creighton Audette came up with an incremental load testing scheme, aka "ladder test".  The thoughts are that there will be flat spots relative to velocity, as well as group dispersion (typically vertical), and general nodes of accuracy as the powder levels are incremented, which is where the ideal charge weights should be chosen.  I would think that some of these principles would apply to powder selection and developing loads even in a pistol.

here are a couple of links that may explain better:

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2012/07/13/creighton-audette-ladder-testing/

http://home.mindspring.com/~45-70-350/the_ladder_test.htm


-Ron

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by LenV on Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:55 pm

I guess I got bored. I decided to see if I could give Beeser an answer using data that other people have collected. Using the load listings in the Lyman 49th edition page 382 I selected 11 different powders they use for their 200gr Lead SWC bullet #452630. I used the low load and the high load and the difference in speed to get a baseline. I had to get them all apples to apples so I calculated how many grains of powder was needed to change the fps by 50 ft. I realize there are more factors then speed for accuracy but the OP asked which powder you would see the least change in accuracy given the variable of powder alone. So.. drum roll. The results were a little surprising. I expected the answer to match pretty much in line with the burn rate chart. I will list these in order of burn rate.

1. Bullseye   .797      
2. Clays       .181
3, 700X       .264
4. Titegroup .252
5. WST        .238
6. 231         .301
7.SR7625    .442
8. Unique    .382
9. PowerP   .275
10.SR4756  .293
11. Bluedot .352

The winner of this little experiment was Bullseye hands down. At .797 gr of powder to change the velocity of the bullet 50 fps it is almost twice as forgiving as any of the other powders I looked at.

I knew you would get my reference Rob.


Last edited by OldMaster65 on Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Accuracy in range of loads?

Post by james r chapman on Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:34 pm

excellent

my headaches better because of this...

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