38 special sizing dilemma

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38 special sizing dilemma

Post by robert84010 on Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:42 pm

First topic message reminder :

I am trying to figure out the best reloading methods for my PPC open revolver. I have problems using the speedloaders when I size and use the long expander, which I use for the HBWC bullets. seems like the expander opens the brass too much but I use it so that I don't swage down the hollow bases. seems like revolver use needs a little more attention compared to a semi-auto, especially using speedloaders.

So what is the compromise? no long expander and possibly reduced accuracy from the bases being swaged down?  If it matters I reload 38 on a SD Dillon but I could get regular dies and use a 550 if I had to.

Jerry, Jim any PPC secrets?

Thanks for any help.

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Re: 38 special sizing dilemma

Post by Jerry Keefer on Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:32 pm

Always use case lube.. Your sizing die will live a lot longer.. Hornady One Shot is about the best available.. I buy it by the case... Dillion had the best, years ago, then they went "Green" and it isn't the same..

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Re: 38 special sizing dilemma

Post by robert84010 on Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:01 am

well, I shot my first PPC course yesterday. I had no problems with rounds feeding, absolutely perfect. The problem came from misfires, 10 rounds misfired during a 60 shot and 150 shot combined. I guess I didn't seat the primers all the way considering the lightened action. I'll have to recycle them through and see if they fire on the second hit. I would have broke 1400 if not for those.

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Re: 38 special sizing dilemma

Post by james r chapman on Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:32 am

Robert, Joe likes to lighten them too much for my comfort. I screwed mine in all the way and still got an extremely smooth 7#/DA trigger pull with zero misfires. You can't chance ANY if your going to spend time shooting for your best.

Federal primers only in that gun. You can measure the primer depth, but I don't think you'll find anything out of spec.

I one asked Milt Williams, a 1490+ shooter about that. He said he can't take that chance and cares only about smoothness and heavy enough for reliable ignition. Milt shoots one of Joes guns.

Jim

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Re: 38 special sizing dilemma

Post by robert84010 on Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:23 pm

do you think the lightened hammer helps? my model 10 was done many years ago and doesn't have the skeleton style hammer.

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Re: 38 special sizing dilemma

Post by james r chapman on Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:34 pm

I'd just turn the screw in 1/2 a turn and see what happens. Should be a set screw on the side you loosen up first.

She skeleton looks good, but, decades of standard hammers worked great. It's all about the smoothness.

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Re: 38 special sizing dilemma

Post by Jerry Keefer on Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:52 pm

robert84010 wrote:well, I shot my first PPC course yesterday. I had no problems with rounds feeding, absolutely perfect. The problem came from misfires, 10 rounds misfired during a 60 shot and 150 shot combined. I guess I didn't seat the primers all the way considering the lightened action. I'll have to recycle them through and see if they fire on the second hit. I would have broke 1400 if not for those.

I adjust my my punch to slightly flatten the primer when seated...We have burnt a case of factory in the last three days... Testing and training...I am very pleased to this point...

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Re: 38 special sizing dilemma

Post by robert84010 on Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:11 pm

Jim, I was able to add about half a turn of tension. it was already below flush in the frame.

Jerry, thanks. i'll pay more attention to the primers. like I said, i've realized how easy I had it making 45 ammo.

I had a blast shooting the course. don't see why it's not more popular.

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Re: 38 special sizing dilemma

Post by Jerry Keefer on Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:44 pm

Back in the early 80s, I remember 9 relays at Des Moines.. Huge crowds and a very vibrant merchant's row..
Then, we later became politically correct...Jackson, Miss. was never the same..

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Re: 38 special sizing dilemma

Post by james r chapman on Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:26 pm

Jerry, I never made anything beyond the Canton, Ohio regionals (sectionals?) Back in the 70's , but Lyle Schroeder , MSP, would tell us tales of Collins and others and the great PPC shoots. Back when it was important for LE agency's to maintain competitive teams.

Jim

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Re: 38 special sizing dilemma

Post by Jerry Keefer on Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:22 pm

james r chapman wrote:Jerry, I never made anything beyond the Canton, Ohio regionals (sectionals?) Back in the 70's , but Lyle Schroeder , MSP, would tell us tales of Collins and others and the great PPC shoots. Back when it was important for LE agency's to maintain competitive teams.

Jim
I knew Lyle and his wife Kathy well. Kathy was with the FBI and a very accomplished High Master competitor.
I was going to further comment on mis fires, as I have neglected the issue since it was first posted..
On S&W hammer mounted pins..most all lack protrusion length. I set them all at .060 and polish the pin nose to a very high luster. I favor the sides to slightly flatten them to aid penetration. Do not get over zealous with that..When a firing pin strikes a primer, the cup metal is in motion, and must have a place to go. It will flow around a contoured polished pin much easier, and allow the pin to travel further into the primer.   I also check the hammer face contact marks.. If it is not making square contact, when facing off for the pin distance, I true it up to strike the frame as square as possible. I also check the bushing for bind.. The pin nose should pass thru the bushing with zero resistance.
When the hammer is held completely forward solid against the frame.. The pin should be free /  loose within the bushing.
Inside the frame, the rebound block and hammer camming surfaces should completely clear each other, at hammer down, trigger to the rear.. If they make contact even slightly, mis fires will occur. I change the angles on the rebound block to compliment this condition, and also give the rebound spring a running start on the hammer.. A much lighter rebound can often be run when the angles are changed.. A surface grinder and precision compound vise is about the only way to do that accurately. I remove the spur from all PPC revolvers... But to compensate for the weight loss of the above the rotating axis.. I remove a larger amount of weight as low  on the hammer as possible. This speeds the hammer up, and helps to retains the original rotating mass ratio near the pin.  Note the pic..This hammer has not had the spur removed, or other work done at this point..

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Re: 38 special sizing dilemma

Post by robert84010 on Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:59 am

james r chapman wrote:Robert, Joe likes to lighten them too much for my comfort. I screwed mine in all the way and still got an extremely smooth 7#/DA trigger pull with zero misfires. You can't chance ANY if your going to spend time shooting for your best.

Federal primers only in that gun. You can measure the primer depth, but I don't think you'll find anything out of spec.

I one asked Milt Williams, a 1490+ shooter about that. He said he can't take that chance and cares only about smoothness and heavy enough for reliable ignition. Milt shoots one of Joes guns.

Jim  
after looking at my cases from this practice match I noticed that all but one of the primers that failed to fire were Winchester instead of the Federal that I am supposed to use. Looking back I remember that I grabbed some Winchesters because they were closest and I had gotten in a hurry. With the increase in spring adjustment and using only Federal primers I am looking forward to next months practice match. 
I also need to get solid 25/50 yard neck hold zeroes. I forgot how hard it is to see black sights C.O.M. inside of a black silhouette target, especially when it's overcast.
 I can't wait for my Ted Blocker 1911 rig to get delivered. I've been really knocking the X ring out with it in practice. 
Thanks for the advice.

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Re: 38 special sizing dilemma

Post by james r chapman on Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:22 pm


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Re: 38 special sizing dilemma

Post by GrumpyOldMan on Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:26 pm

If you're running that light of a hammer, I suggest you periodically bench the revolver and check for vertical stringing. I found a 2:1 vertical oval group phenomenon after increasing one revolver to 100% ignition. Don't remember how much I increased it the 2nd time, but it was so the hammer would lift either 2 lbs or 3 lbs on the trigger pull gauge (trigger held back, hammer in the fired position), and the groups got round again.

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Re: 38 special sizing dilemma

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