Alibi procedures

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Alibi procedures

Post by xman on Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:11 pm

Having never had an alibi in a match I have some questions. Say I get off 3 rounds in TF or RF and I get a stove pipe.

The range staff inspect my pistol and approve an alibi for me. At the completion of the TF or RF stage in question I get my alibi string..correct? I load a full five rounds, shoot and score only the lower 10 shots..correct?

Also is it worth calling for an alibi in SF if time in not about to expire? I know one has 10 minutes to shoot so clearing a  FTL, FTF or FTE is not an issue unless time is to expire shortly (I do use a timer at the bench).


Last edited by xman on Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:16 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : missed typed)

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by rfmiller on Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:19 pm

When you get an approved alibi, you shoot another 5 shot string.  You then score the 10 lowest scoring shots.  You loose the highest scoring shots per the number of shots you got off in your bad string.
I wouldn't ever call for an alibi in slow fire, given I didn't have a MAJOR problem with the gun in that I needed to let the range officer know of the problem.

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by Rob Kovach on Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:00 pm

You only get 1 alibi per match so using it during slowfire of an NMC would be a waste.

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by mspingeld on Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:08 pm

To elaborate on Rob's post, 1 alibi per match can mean 1 alibi for slow fire, 1 for the NMC, 1 for timed and 1 for rapid. In a full 2700, 3 gun match, that could be 12 alibis.

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by Ed Hall on Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:32 pm

I hate to be rude, but...:

"9.14 - Refiring
...
(c) In multiple stage matches one refire will be allowed in
the slow fire stage and one refire will be allowed in the
combined timed and rapid fire stages.
..."

Also note that the term alibi is not referenced in the rule book.  You need to look for the term refire, as illustrated in the above excerpt.

As for Slow Fire you can clear simple troubles without RO involvement, but anything that will take time should be brought to their attention discretely, so they can adjust your time.  In Sustained Fire, wait for the string to end, so you don't call the RO into your neighbor's space while they are firing.  Your refire string will be after the last string for everyone for that target and you will be responsible for 13 hits.  So, if you only fire four of the refire string, you will still be held responsible for 13.  So, the low ten could include a miss and not necessarily be the low ten hits.

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by mspingeld on Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:36 pm

How is the NMC treated? Could I have an alibi in the NMC and the slow fire stage?

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by rfmiller on Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:32 pm

Ed,
Was that rule changed within the last few years?  It seems to me that many are under the impression (as I was) that timed and rapid were considered separately when considering refires.  Was this just a local tradition or a misinterpretation of the rules?

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by Jack H on Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:55 pm

If your pistol breaks during SF, say at 6 minutes you notify the RO, you are entitled to 4 minutes later to finish the SF. 

How do repairs or backup guns come into play here?

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by Rob Kovach on Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:45 pm

9.1 Changing Pistols - Competitors are to use the same pistol during single stage matches, i.e., Slow Fire, Timed Fire, Rapid Fire and NMC (a single match). If a pistol becomes disabled at any time and is designated as such by the Chief Range Officer, all shots fired up to the time the claim is made will stand as part of the official score. Any disabled claim must be made immediately. The exchange of barrels, detachable weights etc. shall not be restricted. (For timed and rapid fire see rules 9.5, 10.9, and 10.10.)

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by Rob Kovach on Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:06 pm

9.14 Refiring -
(a) No competitor will fire more than one score for the same award except as provided in the program or in accordance with Rule 14.10.
(b) In single stage matches composed of several strings of fire only one refire per match will be allowed.
(c) In multiple stage matches one refire will be allowed in the slow fire stage and one refire will be allowed in the combined timed and rapid fire stages.
(d) Refires of slow fire refires are to be fired immediately after the relay in which the refire occurred.
(e) Refires as a result of interruption of fire (Rule 9.12) do not apply to this rule.24 1

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by JKR on Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:13 pm

Rob,

Does this mean that a different gun can be used for slow, timed, rapid, and NMC? There seems to be some confusion about this. In our local league there are shooters switching guns between slow and sustained fire. 

As an ex rifle shooter, I stuck my foot in my mouth last week by saying it wasn't legal unless you had a disabled gun. Big argument followed!

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by Rob Kovach on Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:13 pm

I wanted to post the full 9.14 rule to make it clear(er).
So, a normal 2700 is made up of the following matches:
Slow fire match--20 shots
National Match Course -- 30 shots
Timed fire Match -- 20 shots
Rapid Fire Match -- 20 shots
My interpretation of sub (b) makes me figure that you don't get a separate refire for slowfire stage of the NMC match.
You would be eligible for 1 refire in the Slow fire match and 1 each for the timed fire and rapid fire matches.

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by Rob Kovach on Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:19 pm

JKR,
I interpret the rules to say you can use a different pistol for each match.

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by Ed Hall on Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:51 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:...
My interpretation of sub (b) makes me figure that you don't get a separate refire for slowfire stage of the NMC match...
And, this where I disagree.

At the bottom of section 7 is the following definition:

"Single Stage Course
Any number of strings (10 shot at 50 yards slow fire, or 5-shot at
timed or rapid fire) fired at a single distance as specified in the
conditions of the match and in the regular time allowed for that
type of firing." (my emphasis added)

This, to me, means that the NMC is a multiple stage match.  Also the wording of 9.14(c) perfectly describes the NMC, i.e. "In multiple stage matches one refire will be allowed in the slow fire stage and one refire will be allowed in the combined timed and rapid fire stages." (my emphasis added)

Further,

"Competitors are to use the same pistol during single stage matches, i.e., Slow Fire, Timed Fire, Rapid Fire and NMC (a single match)."  I read this as single stage matches (SF, TF, RF) and (multiple stage match) NMC. This is grouping the single stage matches, Slow Fire, Timed Fire and Rapid Fire with the NMC, a multiple stage match to describe this particular rule, which is why it says "(a single match)" after NMC, to separate it from the single stage matches.

Guns can be swapped only between matches (aside from failure), so it is not legal to swap within the NMC, which agrees with Rob Kovach's immediately previous post.

These rules are the same as they were as far back as I can remember, but I believe the NMC refire debate has been waging on due to the rarity of anyone needing to call a Slow Fire "alibi."

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by jmdavis on Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:16 pm

OK Ed, so that means that one could have 1 alibi in slow fire, 1 alibi in  the NMC, 1 in Timed Fire and 1 in rapid for a total of 4 in a 900 and 12 in a 2700.  Though in all honesty I would call it a night after the third or fourth one. 

Or am I missing something. Since we have 4 matches in a 900 that should be 4 alibis, right?

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by Ed Hall on Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:29 pm

jmdavis wrote:OK Ed, so that means that one could have 1 alibi in slow fire, 1 alibi in  the NMC, 1 in Timed Fire and 1 in rapid for a total of 4 in a 900 and 12 in a 2700.  Though in all honesty I would call it a night after the third or fourth one. 

Or am I missing something. Since we have 4 matches in a 900 that should be 4 alibis, right?
If, as I am suggesting, the NMC is a multiple stage match, then you can have two refires during it; one in the SF stage and one more in the combined TF and RF stages.  This equates to five during each 900.

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by jmdavis on Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:01 pm

OK, I understand now. I don't expect to take a slowfire alibi, but thanks.

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by LenV on Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:05 pm

i.e., Slow Fire, Timed Fire, Rapid Fire and NMC (a single match)." 

Since this wording is in the firearm section and not found in the re-fire section. I read it to mean just what it says. The NMC is a single match and you may not change firearms between the slow fire and the timed fire within the NMC. I would also add that IMO since it is a single match there would only be one re-fire allowed. It may be a multiple stage match but is still "a single match"

Len  

Oh.. I would have been right beside JKR arguing that you finish with the gun you started with unless it breaks. Time to break out the free pistol for slowfire.

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by Ed Hall on Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:58 pm

OldMaster65 wrote:...
I would also add that IMO since it is a single match there would only be one re-fire allowed. It may be a multiple stage match but is still "a single match"

Len  

Oh.. I would have been right beside JKR arguing that you finish with the gun you started with unless it breaks. Time to break out the free pistol for slowfire.
How interesting... you agree that the NMC is a "multiple stage match" but do not honor rule 9.4(c) which clearly states 1+1?:

"(c) In multiple stage matches one refire will be allowed in the slow fire stage and one refire will be allowed in the combined timed and rapid fire stages."


I have considered trying my Free Pistol in the SF Match, but I can't get the trigger to two pounds and the sight radius is a bit long...

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by john bickar on Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:22 pm

This thread is reminiscent of the old Bullseye-L.

Needs more WD-40.

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by jmdavis on Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:25 pm

Don't forget the latest "Wunder lube", says the man who puts a drop of snake oil on the top casing of every timed and rapid 45 mag he shoots.

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by Rob Kovach on Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:45 am

I just checked with a friend who is an NRA referee and he said that you are able to take an alibi for the slow fire stage of the NMC and then take 1 alibi for the sustained fire stage also.

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by CR10X on Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:24 am

I  have developed the following to help introduce new shooters to the terminology used for bullseye that seems to be consistent with the use in the rule book.  I ain't saying its perfectly correct, but it seems to work.  Unfortunately, you have to read the rule book to get and interpret the meaning of some of the words as they do not provide a glossary.  The term "match" is one of those terms. 

For most bullseye competitions a match is not a match, it is a Tournament. We typically say we are going to shoot the "match" when we mean compete in the Tournament. We are going to shoot a number of matches during that tournament. 

The descriptions for matches recognized for competition is in the rule book. If you read the commands this is clear.  For example..."When ready to start the firing of a match the Range Officer commands “RELAY NO.1, MATCH NO._ (or naming the match), ON THE FIRING LINE.”  You will notice that each match at the National Match has a number and is announced by name, such as "Match No. XXX, the .22 Caliber Slow Fire Match".  

A Tournament is a complete contest consisting of Aggregates.
Aggregates consist of separate matches. with the equipment specified for that Aggregate. 
Matches can be single or multiple stage for example "slow fire", "timed fire",
rapid fire"  or "slow, timed and rapid fire" as a combination to be scored as a match.
A stage consists of single or multiple strings of fire performed under specific conditions for that string of fire.

(Sometimes the wording is combined since there is no need. For example the .22 Slow Fire Match is a singe stage match with 2 strings of slow fire, 10 shots in 10 minutes".  Since it is a singe match with only one stage, we generally say the "Slow Fire Match" and not the "Slow Fires Stage of the Slow Fire Match". Then you will generally hear ..."for the first string of slow fire, load".

The National Match Course is a multi-stage match.  It has a "slow fire" stage with one string of 10 shots slow fire; a "timed fire" stage consisting of two strings of timed fire; and a "rapid fire" stage consisting of two strings of rapid fire. Therefore we say the "Slow Fire Stage of the National Match Course" when announcing the match and stage.  And according to the rules you can get a refire for slow fire "stage" and for the combined "timed and rapid fire stages" since that is the specific wording in the rules.

However since it is described and scored as a match, you cannot change guns during the National Match Course.

And as a answer to the initial line of question.  The shooter will receive the lowest 10 value shots charged to the shooter for that refire.  If you get 2 shots off on one string and 5 shots on the next and receive a refire, you will be charged for all five of the refire shots, no matter what actually happens.  If you only get 4 of the refire shots off, you will still be responsible for 12 hits on the target.  Any number of  hits less than 12 will be scored as misses and the remianing shots will be scored from the lesser value up until a total of 10 scores have been recorded on the score card.  For this example, the shooter is responsible for 12 shots on the target.  When the scorer gets to the target and there are only 10 hits showing, the scorer will need to show two misses on the score cards before proceeding to score the lowest 8 of the 10 hits on the target.

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by mspingeld on Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:05 am

So, what's the maximum number of alibis allowed in a 2700 point tournament? 15?

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Re: Alibi procedures

Post by Wobbley on Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:28 am

If you have to refire more than once it is significantly more difficult to win, even your class.  If you get more than one refire in a tournament even using three guns, you have something seriously wrong and need to get it fixed.  So the number of allowable refires in a 2700 is effectively moot.

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Re: Alibi procedures

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