New EIC Minimum scores

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New EIC Minimum scores

Post by KevinB on Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:50 pm

For all the talk about the new rules regarding pistols and any jacketed bullets in some way "cheapening" the Distinguished Pistol award, the new 250 point minimum score for EIC points has been strangely not so controversial?  A quick peek back at the CMP Competition tracker results show lots of people getting leg points with scores below the new minimum.  Yes, they did it with hardball, but I think the game just got harder for the guys who were getting legs at matches with 6-10 shooters and low scores.  I support the new rule.

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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by Dave C. on Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:03 pm

I got my third leg in 1990 with issued on the line hardball and three 10 point legs, one a year and the lowest was 
270.  So, no it did not get harder.

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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by KevinB on Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:10 pm

I don't see your point?  It certainly got harder for the guys getting legs with less than 250 scores.

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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by Dave C. on Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:37 pm

You get to the match and  load you magazines with reloads matched to your gun and odds are most will be less than full power and your gun is already sighted in for your loads.  Man, what a hardship.
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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by C.Perkins on Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:54 pm

In my opinion I feel the 250 cut off is about right and would not have a problem with a 260 cut off score.

Awhile back I looked up the scores from Perry and said to myself that if you did not shoot 250-255 you would not get into the top 10% to earn a leg.

I have 30 points (five 6 pointers from shooting in Arizona)
Need a hard leg which is hard to get in small matches.
My legs came from Desert mid winter, regionals and state shoots.
Missed the hard leg at the 2013 mid winter by a few points shooting a 272-2x

My 5 leg scores were:
275-8x, 269-6x, 259-2x, 278-6x and 269-7x

Ammo used was Atlanta Arms.
Pistol is an M9 with a KKM barrel installed by Dave Salyer.

Clarence
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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by KevinB on Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:57 pm

Good luck on that hard leg Clarence, it will come.

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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by C.Perkins on Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:03 pm

KevinB wrote:Good luck on that hard leg Clarence, it will come.

Thanks Kevin;

I cannot use the excuse that it is too far and expensive since we have moved to Wisconsin cause we are a lot closer now.
Planning on Perry in 2016, if nothing else I would just want to shoot all the hardball matches on the last day to keep the cost down and hopefully get my hard leg and P100.

Clarence
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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by DeweyHales on Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:04 pm

I've gotten a leg with less than a 250. It was at the Eastern Games. There were a lot of shooters that day. I beat 90% of them. One was a Navy Seal and a prominent instructor. My score was low, but I'm still proud of it.  The hard leg requirement keeps lower scores from legging out. 

Legging is one thing. Legging out is something else entirely. 

The Distinguished Badge was about finding that next group of good shooters to develop. You'll find them in the top 10% of non-distinguished shooters no matter the scores.
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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:34 pm

What were the conditions like that the cut was so low?
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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by KevinB on Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:40 pm

Good point Dewey, I forgot that the 10 pointer was still part of it.

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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by DeweyHales on Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:29 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:What were the conditions like that the cut was so low?
Rob,

That's a good question. I would counter with the question of "what difference does it make?"  You either beat 90% of similar competitors or you don't. 

It was Mother's Day 2008. It was a little chilly. The targets were super fast turners. Lunch was to be Eastern NC style barbecue with banana pudding. The games matches are mainly attended by rifle shooters. If memory serves, there were enough attendees for four legs. I got the last one by X's. If I really think about it, I could probably remember more details. The one that stands out is four guys beating 90% of the other shooters. 

I've taken a bronze at a match where a Navy shooter got gold with a score lower than mine. I beat 90% of the shooters. The Navy shooter beat all the rest of the Navy shooters. My score gets bronze. The lower score gets gold. As a civilian, I'm very fortunate to stand and compete shoulder to shoulder with the armed service members at All Navy. I'll keep going as long as I can. 

My point before the rule and now is beating 90% of the field should be all that matters. The hard leg will keep the badge out of reach of shooters who cannot put it all together.
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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by jmdavis on Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:51 pm

Dewey, 

You may have the best arguement, I've heard against the minimum. But I think it is a done deal this year. I went and looked at the Eastern Games, Atlantic Fleet and All Navy matches for the past several years and there would surely be a number of top 10% who would not get points.  

Maybe CMP will need to revisit next year or we will need to shoot better. 

Bring a .22 to Eastern Games.
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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by Froneck on Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:04 am

I'm glad they put a minimum score! Many clubs would gather anyone that wanted to shoot, give them a gun and let them shoot the match just to increase the number of shooters to give out more legs

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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by DeweyHales on Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:22 pm

That'll still happen. The 22 badge pretty much guarantees lots of people giving it a try. 

What's wrong with people trying out our sport?  How do we grow it if we don't put a gun in a new shooter's hand?
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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by Froneck on Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:32 pm

I don't see nothing wrong, that's the reason I assume to make the changes. More people in the sport the better. I just think and many that I've talked to that if the medal is made too easy to get it will lower the support. Yes many club could have added shooter so as to increase the number of shooters that had no interest in earning the medal as they did by bringing Rifle and trap shooter over just to add people to the list. My son was in the Marine Corps and they brought over anyone that was willing to shoot just to add shooters. I forgot the actual number needed to give a leg, yes it's 10% but I think 8 will earn the shooter 8 points not the 10. However years ago they were aware of that so certain matches also had to be shot. A Command Match and Camp Perry earned points were required. Command matches were ended and the CMP decided Camp Perry would be removed from the requirement. That really cheapened the medal and it could be attained shooting a low score at a "Rigged" local match. However what I think is the main reason for poor attendance is that once the medal is won nothing else except winning the match is available to the civilian shooter! Just about all the trophies are given to Military shooters. Actually the name goes on the trophy and you get a plaque. If my memory is correct last year at Perry they charged $50 to shoot the NTI that's only 30 rounds!

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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by KevinB on Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:41 pm

You still need at least one 8 or 10 point leg to go out.

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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by jmdavis on Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:36 pm

Yep, you need a hard leg. And a hard leg means at least 26 shooters. I've been to at least one rifle leg match where we didn't even have 6 non-distinguished. I've seen leg matches where there were no more than 2 legs.

I seldom here people talk anymore about the 60's when base commanders would shut down and order everyone to shoot the matches. Perhaps that is one reason why the command matches faded away.

I have every intention of shooting above 250 and 260. I will shoot my best. If I leg, great. If I don't I will train better. I hope that the minimums aren't a big issue. They well may be at Fleet and All Navy. If they are a big issue, hopefully CMP will revisit the issue.
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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by Froneck on Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:38 pm

Well I simply disagree. I don't think it's that hard to shoot the minimum scores. Actually it makes it better but I still think one leg should be Camp Perry! Simply put what stops a few guys getting together at some local club and run a EIC match, gather up a few good ole boys and shoot. Then put down any score they want and send it to the CMP. Heck I legged out at Perry with a 273 ( I think, been a long time ago) when they were issuing ball ammo. I got 3 legs at Perry and my first 6 points at a local match. You did not know what ammo you were getting even at local matches. Any other ammo in the gun box could get you disqualified. I don't see any problem with the ammo change, once they let everyone use their own ball I'm sure there was a few shooting ball that was less that 230gr. So now everyone can shoot anything they want. Leveled the playing field.

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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by KevinB on Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:04 pm

What keeps anyone from cheating?

This is not directed at you Froneck but I think the biggest impediment to new EIC participation may be crusty old shooters telling the new guys that their Distinguished Pistol badge isn't "Real".

It's time for the old guard to drop the attitude or they will end up owning a designation that NO ONE thinks is worth a wooden nickel.  Saw the same thing in Service Rifle, guys that went out with the AR were looked down on by guys that went out with the M14, looked down on by guys that went out with a Garand looked down on by guys that went out with a Springfield.

The new shooters should respect the accomplishments of the old.  Likewise, the old shooters should respect the aspirations of the new.

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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by 3 gun Gus on Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:14 pm

Why call it a ball match?  Call it an open sight match.  That's all it is anymore.

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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by jmdavis on Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:17 pm

I call it a Leg match, because that is what it is and what it always has been.

People complained when ammo ceased to be issued, people complained when you could use your own 230 gr reloads. Now people will complain over allowing any jacketed ammo. It's still a leg match and the same rules still apply to every current competitor.

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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by robert84010 on Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:56 pm

JMDavis, a hard leg only requires 16 shooters not 26.

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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by Wobbley on Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:21 am

As a rifle shooter, I never felt that an AR shooter cheapened my medal.  The game is the game.  You're either in the top 10% or you're not.  Now with the have minimum scores, I think makes the game moderately harder.
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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by jmdavis on Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:24 am

robert84010 wrote:JMDavis, a hard leg only requires 16 shooters not 26.

You are absolutely right. I had it in my head that 16 was 2 bronze and 26 was one silver and 2 bronze. However the correct  breakdown for 16 is  1 silver and 1 bronze. I apologize.


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Re: New EIC Minimum scores

Post by Froneck on Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:41 am

They called it Ball because Military Ball Ammo was required and issued at the Match.


Last edited by Froneck on Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:52 am; edited 1 time in total

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