New EIC Acceptable Pistols

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New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by BrianD on 3/2/2015, 12:47 pm

I am a match director and I hope everyone is happy with the new rules.  I say this because I believe it is going to reduce the number of matches.

Why?  I just did a count on the number of pistols that are allowed, 136 different models.

So I will probably try it this year but if it is as big of a problem as I think it will be it will be the last year I run a EIC pistol match.

It makes $0.00 for our club as we essentially just cover the costs.

And by the way we have given out at least 1 leg ( and yes they were 6 point legs) every year that we ran the match.

As you may gather I am upset.  The CMP took a match that was easy to do and made it difficult.

And if you have never ran a match don't tell me that it will not be more difficult.

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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by james r chapman on 3/2/2015, 1:14 pm

It's not difficult. Do like they did, let everything pass...
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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by DavidR on 3/2/2015, 1:16 pm

As convoluted as it has become I doubt I will bother shooting any of them anymore, and I don't see many legs going out with the 250 starting point except at perry and mostly to the newer military shooters. Im sure it will be much harder for those putting them on too.
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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by KevinB on 3/2/2015, 2:44 pm

You only need to do an inspection of the match winner and leg winners pistols, can't add that much time.  Yes, I have run a match.(service rifle)

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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by Rob Kovach on 3/2/2015, 2:54 pm

I disagree with the above post because it's important that all of the shooters on the line are competing with legal firearms and that the line isn't stacked with illegal shooters to add extra legs.

I don't see it as being prohibitably difficult.  It's not hard to administer an NRA match and far more pistols are allowed than 136.

I don't see it hard to shoot over 250--especially with the new ammo rules.

The spring match that we are running doesn't have an EIC match this year because it's a new match for this venue and we need to see how many participants to expect and how much time the 2700 is going to take, but we fully intend to offer .22 EIC, regular EIC and DR in future matches.

BrianD, what about the addition of additional firearms is making this difficult?  If the gun is on the list at the time of the trigger weigh in, and it lifts 4lbs, it's good to go.  Am I missing something?
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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by KevinB on 3/2/2015, 3:06 pm

Good point Rob.  I agree that it isn't likely to be a problem.

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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by CR10X on 3/2/2015, 3:16 pm

Well, maybe a little is missing. Fof example I show up with a 9mm XDm Comp. Its on the list, so I'm good to go, right? Maybe not. The Comp comes standard with fiber optic front sight which is not permitted under 6.3.2. Please be aware that the conditions of 6.3.1 and 6.3.2 also apply to all the guns under 6.3.4.

So yes, there is some additional reviewing of the guns, you can't just go by the model numbers given under 6.3.4.

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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by Corregidor on 3/2/2015, 3:23 pm

A. Inspections/ Trigger weighing at EIC Matches not mandatory anymore:

6.3.5 Enforcement of Approved List 

Competitors are responsible for ensuring that the pistols they use in CMP sanctioned competitions are legal according to Rule 6.3.

Pistol Inspections. Match Sponsors may, at their option, conduct pistol checks or random pistol checks before or during competitions. Match Sponsors may, alternatively, require all Non-Distinguished competitors or all competitors with scores of 250 or higher to present their pistols for inspection when scorecards are turned in. Any competitor who used a pistol that was not on the approved list is subject to disqualification.

B. DR limitations:

(l) NRA Distinguished Revolver Match - 
May be authorized by the NRA after an application has been filed. Application forms are available from NRA upon request. The NRA National Match Course will be used for all competitions under this program. Tournaments wishing to host competitions under this program are limited to National Championships, Regional Championships and State Championships, as defined in Rule 1.6 which are conducted outdoors.

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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by Rob Kovach on 3/2/2015, 4:30 pm

Great Point Corregidor.

--maybe it would be better to just let the shooters shoot and only scrutineering the pistols of shooters who shot over 250.

When I'm competing I'm going to insist to check that my gun can lift the match directors weight set BEFORE the match.
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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by CR10X on 3/2/2015, 5:24 pm

Actually, we need to read the complete wording:

6.3.5 Enforcement of Approved List Competitors are responsible for ensuring that the pistols they use in CMPsanctioned competitions are legal according to Rule 6.3. Pistol Inspections. Match Sponsors may, at their option, conduct pistol checks or random pistol checks before or during competitions. Match Sponsors may, alternatively, require all Non-Distinguished competitors or all competitors with scores of 250 or higher to present their pistols for inspection when scorecards are turned in. Any competitor who used a pistol that was not on the approved list is subject to disqualification. 

The use of the word "at their option" and "alternately"  would seem to indicate that either of the two options is available, but at least one of them would be used.  So there will seem to be an inspection required; at least for competitors shooting over 250.  
 
Along with:

6.5.2 Firearm Inspections Competitors are responsible for ensuring that their firearms are safe and meet all applicable requirements of Rules 6.1 through 6.4. The Match Director and competition officials are authorized to check firearms and equipment for compliance with CMP Rules before, during or after competitions. The CMP may establish post-competition firearm inspections where firearms used in CMP sanctioned competitions are disassembled and checked to ensure compliance with CMP Rules. Such inspections, however, may only be made after the competitor has completed firing all stages of an event. If a competitor’s firearm fails an inspection during or immediately after a competition event, the competitor’s score for that event must be disqualified. 6.5.3 Weighing Triggers Service rifles and pistols and as-issued military rifles must comply with minimum trigger pull weights that are specified in Rules 6.1.1 and 6.3.1. When trigger pulls are checked, the trigger weight must be lifted so that it hangs freely from the cocked trigger. After the trigger weight is lifted, the trigger must be released to confirm that it was properly cocked. A maximum of three attempts may be made to lift the trigger weight. 

Question:  If you shoot over 250 with an unapproved pistol and the score is disqualified, does that also remove the competition from the number of non-distinguished shooters competing?

If that is the case, then should we not also be inspecting for less than 250 score? Otherwise someone will be adding to the total of non-distinguished with an unapproved gun. I guess if the CMP wants to get the money and the numbers, but not give the leges, it would be ok?

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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by Rob Kovach on 3/2/2015, 8:24 pm

The CMP may establish post-competition firearm inspections where firearms used in CMP sanctioned competitions are disassembled and checked to ensure compliance with CMP Rules.
Well, my interpretation indicates that until such time as the CMP establishes the post-competition firearm inspection procedures, we are good to go without them.

The disqualified shooters will still be entrants, I figure CMP can sort out who gets legs and how many when I submit the results.

My guess is that shooter is subtracted from the number of competitors.

I'm still going to be checking all EIC guns for 4lb triggers and the general compliance with the approved pistols list.
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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by CR10X on 3/3/2015, 7:11 am

I believe that 6.5.2 was written to add procedures for a "disassemble and inspection process" in addition to the normal visual inspection under the two options in 6.3.5. That would be consistent with some of the other shooting sports that deal with issues related to making sure "stock" is stock and not modified in some way.

The wording seems to indicate that the match has proceed with one of the two options under 6.3.5 at a minimum.

I don't really have a problem since I don't run EIC matches, but I would not want to lose the chance of a leg because someone else's gun did not pass after the match and therefore there were no legs or went from two to one.

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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by IDescribe on 3/3/2015, 7:57 am

Aren't the prohibited features pretty much the same for all of the models?  And doesn't that make the check pretty much the same regardless of what model pistol it is?  Doesn't seem like much extra work.

Also, aren't the people showing up with Glocks and M&P's and FNs and whatnot with their sloppy service pistol barrel bushings going to get their hats handed to them by 1911 shooters anyway?  Won't the end result of this be to give people without 1911s the opportunity to participate and enjoy the sport, then go out and buy a 1911 so they can compete?  Buying what the winners are shooting seems to be the standard practice in every shooting sport.  This seems like a chance to grow the sport and grow the body of 1911 shooters in the process.

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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by Rob Kovach on 3/3/2015, 10:21 am

IDescribe, 

What you are talking about is certainly the idea behind the rulechanges--access to the sport even if the striker fired guns aren't AS accurate as the 1911s, but BrianD's concern is more to do with the practical function on the rules from the perspective of the match director--less so the shooter.

Because so many guns found on a bullseye firing line are 1911's, and the .22s are fairly open on the rules, it has been fairly easy to administer a bullseye or EIC match.  The consequences of these rules allowing more guns that we don't have as much experience with is the uncertainty that comes with unfamiliar territory.

I agree with BrianD that we are going to find ourselves on unfamiliar territory as we greet new shooters with unusual equipment to our sport.  I'm optimistic that the "problems" and the answers to unanswered questions will come to us quickly, and it will all work out for the best.

I'm not too worried about the accuracy of some of the new guns.  If a good shooter can manage to shoot a 75 long line with them; I haven't seen one of those plastic guns that can't shoot in the mid-90s on the short line.  A good shooter with one of those "off the shelf" striker fired guns should be able to shoot 250+ no problem.  Winning a leg will depend on the other competitors....
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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by DavidR on 3/3/2015, 10:52 am

The problem with not checking each firearm before a match will result when like many matches there are barely enough non dist. shooters to reach the required for a leg to give away, then you wait till after and find one or more shooters that competed had non qualifying guns and are DQ, that throws out the whole match and the winner gets no leg.
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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by Colt711 on 3/3/2015, 3:10 pm

DavidR wrote:The problem with not checking each firearm before a match will result when like many matches there are barely enough non dist. shooters to reach the required for a leg to give away, then you wait till after and find one or more shooters that competed had non qualifying guns and are DQ, that throws out the whole match and the winner gets no leg.

Shouldn't this be sorted out by CMP? Do they accept calls or have some kind of procedure for communicating with match directors?  Or, is this like NRA where there is a directive occurring w/o warning?

Seems like the match directors would be an excellent resource and/or a sounding board. If there was someone to contact for an explanation of these questions  negative opinions would be lessened appreciably.


I don't see how these matches can be run w/o an inspection PRIOR to firing to ensure the integrity of the program. It's only natural 1911 shooters, especially considering their investmen,t are concerned about alll these new guns. In time this should all be sorted out and any changes to old or need of new will be better understood.

Just wonderin'

Ron Habegger


Last edited by Colt711 on 3/3/2015, 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : 3-3-14 add last para.)

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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by CR10X on 3/3/2015, 6:17 pm

"And if you have never ran a match don't tell me that it will not be more difficult."

I feel your concern.  Match Directors seldom get asked what they think, by the NRA, CMP or shooters.  I know you will probably do a great job and have a good match (otherwise you would not already be a match director).  But anytime you want to vent a little, go right ahead.  I'll listen.

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New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by BrianD on 3/4/2015, 6:46 am

For both the EIC matches and the DR matches every gun that is going to be used is inspected for Trigger Pull and working safety features.

We have had instances when a gun did not make weight and usually we will give them time to correct it or replace it.  We usually weigh triggers between CF and 45 so they have time.

Since we run two relays they can also borrow a gun.

What we plan to do for these is weigh the triggers and if it has an external safety check that.

If someone has a Glock that has a 3.5 lb trigger it will be disqualified.

We will look at the front sight to make sure they are legal and whatever else we see in the rules.

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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by TexasC on 3/5/2015, 8:03 am

CR10X wrote:Well, maybe a little is missing.   Fof example I show up with a 9mm XDm Comp.  Its on the list, so I'm good to go, right?  Maybe not.  The Comp comes standard with fiber optic front sight which is not permitted under 6.3.2.  Please be aware that the conditions of 6.3.1 and 6.3.2 also apply to all the guns under 6.3.4.

So yes, there is some additional reviewing of the guns, you can't just go by the model numbers given under 6.3.4.

Cecil, in the case of your hypothetical XD, lone the competitor your RAY-VIN SuperSmoker for a few minutes and viwala no more fiber optic. Be sure to tell him to hold it as far away as possible so as not to melt or  damage his strand, when finished he can just brush the sights clean.

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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by CR10X on 3/5/2015, 6:26 pm

TexasC
Sorry that will not work.  It says no fiber optic sight, so even if the strand is black, it's still a fiber optic sight.

Now if he did melt it away, then we have a front sight with a hole in it and I guess that would be OK.

cheers

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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by LenV on 3/7/2015, 12:56 pm

How would you rule a 1911 with an extended mag well? It came from the factory that way. The old rules mentioned the mainspring housing. The new rules kinda skip over them. Question

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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by KevinB on 3/7/2015, 1:04 pm

Perfectly legal.

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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by CR10X on 3/7/2015, 4:09 pm

How do  you get to that conclusion?  I can't see where the magwell would be allowed so please help me.  My purpose in questioning is twofold. I want to get this right and I really want to make sure some unsuspecting shooter doesn't by something that will not work.  Thanks.

6.3.1 General Service Pistol Requirements The following specific Rules apply to all Service Pistols: 

 A list of 33 “CMP Approved Service Pistols” with their maximum barrel lengths is posted on the CMP Competitions website.  (The Springfield Trophy is not on this list of Other Service Pistols.) 

Pistols may be match conditioned, provided there are no external alterations or modifications that are not specifically approved in this Rule or Rule 6.3.2. 

No other external alterations, additions or changes may be made to the pistol unless those specific alterations, additions or changes are explicitly permitted by Rule 6.3.2.

6.3.2 Approved Service Pistol Modifications Any approved Service Pistol may have the following specific modifications or alterations: (a magwell is not listed in these allowed modifications as far as I can see, am I missing something?) 

6.3.3 Approved U. S. Service Pistols and Commercial Equivalents The following U. S. Government Service Pistols or commercial versions of the same type and caliber may be used in CMP-sanctioned Service Pistol Matches, provided they comply with Rules 6.3.1 and 6.3.2. • U. S. Government or Colt M1911 Service Pistols or commercial versions of the same type (M1911) and caliber. These pistols must be chambered for the .45ACP cartridge and have a barrel length not greater than 5.100”.

The Springfield 1911 trophy is not on the list so it goes by the service pistol modifications allowed. The modifications do not include a magwell and creates a change in the external appearance. Just because the factory did it does not seem to be a supporting condition for this one? Kinda like the issue we used to have with the Colt "eye" cut under the trigger guard. 

Kinda gets back to the issues the original poster on this thread was concerned about, so please help me with your determination.

Thanks


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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by KevinB on 3/7/2015, 4:25 pm

You got me. I did not notice the extended mag well.  I remembered that the new rule allowed base pads and oversize mag releases but you are correct that it does not specify an extended mag well as one of the allowable modifications.  If I owned the pistol in question I would submit a question directly to CMP for clarification, I don't see how a mag well is any advantage, but perhaps it should be included in the new rules.  As it reads now, I would say you are correct and it is not allowed.  But I'd hate to see a guy disqualified for it.

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Re: New EIC Acceptable Pistols

Post by LenV on 3/7/2015, 4:56 pm

I am glad CR10X typed all that out so I didn't have to. I read it through several times and didn't think it was allowed. I think this might legitimately be a case of the CMP just missing it. The whole idea behind the changes was so competitors could shoot what they have without having to strip the pistol down and change out the parts it came with. There could be a very tiny argument made that a pistol (1911) with a mag well weighs more than one without and it could be considered a add on or removable weight. That is a stretch but might be why it was not mentioned. I personally hope they will be allowed. I hope Rob will make a call like he does sometimes.

Len
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