Positive Bullseye Article

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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by BE Mike on 3/18/2015, 9:31 am

Yes a good article, except when one makes a sweeping statement in the title, I'd expect some hard fact to back up the numbers. I don't think that bullseye pistol shooting is the most popular shooting discipline. I wish that it were, but I just don't believe it to be so.
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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by C.Perkins on 3/18/2015, 9:49 am

My take on the article is that the author is not talking about "bullseye" as we on this board know it to be.

I think he is talking about any sport that you aim at a black center ring or X or what have you, such as free, air, rapid, sport pistol and bullseye pistol and the like.

In that respect I believe the numbers involved would be a lot higher than you think.

Clarence
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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by DavidR on 3/18/2015, 10:28 am

Great article except he didn't do his homework, the big  glock shoots here in ga pull many more shooters in a single weekend,than several years worth of perry bullseye competitions, so his stats just flat don't make sense to me.
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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by dronning on 3/18/2015, 11:13 am

DavidR The annual Perry numbers are not representative of the number of Bullseye competitors. I'd be surprised if 1 in 20 go to Perry, it's probably even less than that.

- Dave


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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by DavidR on 3/18/2015, 11:23 am

I understand that, he just made a reference to perry in his article so I just wanted to show how little that was to what these glock guys do. on a big weekend they have 2500 people show up, and that like bullseye is only a fraction of its competitors across the nation and world. I doubt if you took all active bullseye shooters currently competing regularly that bullseye would even be in the top three as to numbers. in the years since I started in 2000 I have never been to a non national match that had over 35 shooters. Now if like a previous post said he is lumping in all  black bull target shooting then that would be a lot higher number
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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by jmdavis on 3/18/2015, 12:08 pm

Remember the GSSF match at the last World Cup? Yea, I don't either.
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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by BE Mike on 3/18/2015, 1:54 pm

C.Perkins wrote:My take on the article is that the author is not talking about "bullseye" as we on this board know it to be.

I think he is talking about any sport that you aim at a black center ring or X or what have you, such as free, air, rapid, sport pistol and bullseye pistol and the like.

In that respect I believe the numbers involved would be a lot higher than you think.

Clarence
You can lump all the international shooters in there as well. Many of them are crossover from "conventional pistol" (precision pistol). IMHO, it still wouldn't touch the action crowd or probably not even cowboy action.
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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by C.Perkins on 3/19/2015, 3:53 pm

BE Mike wrote:You can lump all the international shooters in there as well. Many of them are crossover from "conventional pistol" (precision pistol). IMHO, it still wouldn't touch the action crowd or probably not even cowboy action.

Mike, you are probably correct from what I have heard.
Have never been to either of those type of matches recently.
Watched a match back in the late 80's or early 90's where Rob Leatham was shooting in.
Really was not my cup of tea cause I like precision shooting so never got involved.
I have shot bullseye with Rob a few times when I was still in Phoenix.

Clarence
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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by Guest on 3/19/2015, 6:11 pm

Guys, we are missing the point.  It is a positive article, good press like this will bring new shooters to our sport.  Good things like this bring more good things.  A positive mental attitude goes a long way.

Chip

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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by BE Mike on 3/20/2015, 9:00 am

ChipEck wrote:Guys, we are missing the point.  It is a positive article, good press like this will bring new shooters to our sport.  Good things like this bring more good things.  A positive mental attitude goes a long way.

Chip
I hope you are right, but IMHO, nothing beats inviting someone one-on-one to go to a match. I've seen many a shooter get hooked, using that lure.
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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by dronning on 3/20/2015, 9:24 am

BE Mike wrote:
ChipEck wrote:Guys, we are missing the point.  It is a positive article, good press like this will bring new shooters to our sport.  Good things like this bring more good things.  A positive mental attitude goes a long way.

Chip
I hope you are right, but IMHO, nothing beats inviting someone one-on-one to go to a match. I've seen many a shooter get hooked, using that lure.

If every Bullseye shooter committed to bring 1 friend to a match this year, next year there would be shortage of 22 ammo Smile

- Dave
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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by Froneck on 3/20/2015, 9:49 am

Years ago Perry hosted 6,000 competitors, all 6 ranges were used but back then it was the only game on the block except international. Lots of things changed that, when I started going to Perry there were over 1,100 shooters and that would increase quite a bit on Ball day! But mismanagement has created the decline. Pitman Roberts money was use to make repairs but none helped the shooters, we're stuck now paying $40/day for a dilapidated Prisoner of war shack, a lousy mess hall, bad shooting benches and target turning system that constantly breaks down! No respect is given to the shooters! For example I and my son were able to get a New hut of the only few built yet we applied last minute! Others shooters that were told they had a New hut after putting in a request seconds after the opening bell were put in an old hut! Next door to us was a small bore group there to attend a clinic while Pistol was shooting the match, they received 2 new huts yet requested to have them changed, they did not want the new huts but were told NO!! Every year I've gone to Perry there has been an issues that had Pistol shooters bitching and this year it's the Electronic Target Up-Grade. Yes good press might bring them to the sport  the conditions will send them to a different type like IDPA

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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by jmdavis on 3/20/2015, 5:21 pm

OK, this message references a previous message stating that the blog post was divisive.  In between starting this post and finishing it, that one was deleted. 


I didn't actually see anything particularly divisive and I shoot or have shot Cowboy, IDPA, and USPSA. 

It is less expensive to get started in Bullseye. It is easier to understand (as he points out). It requires more precision (50 yard shots at a 6 inch zone in action pistol are rare). You get to shoot more in a day, (3 900 in a day is a lot of shooting). 

Then there are the downsides for some people. 

1. It is hard. The precision involved requires a lot of work and effort. 

2. You spend more time shooting than socializing. A lot of other shooting sports have you spending more time socializing than shooting. 

3. You don't get paid to do it. At least not very often. I don't think that there are many professional bullseye shooters.


Last edited by jmdavis on 3/20/2015, 5:24 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : explanatory)
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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by Rob Kovach on 3/20/2015, 5:38 pm

Come on Frank (Froneck), too much negativity and exaggerations about the miserable conditions.  Stop focusing on the negative.
1. All of the prisoner of war shacks are gone.  If you are going to stay in a hut, the only choice is a new hut or a hotel.  Try getting a hotel for $40.
2. I miss mess hall food.  Keep complaining about it, and it will be gone.  I would rather walk to the mess hall than be forced to drive to town 3 times a day to eat.
3.  A shooting bench is a shooting bench...really? You want to complain about the benches?  Do you want them made out of marble slabs or something?  We aren't doing machine work them.  They just need to hold up our box.
4.  The target turning system could use some updating...but it certainly doesn't break down constantly.  Be serious.  In the past 4 years I've never had a range alibi.
5.  My Wisconsin shooters and I have never been disrespected at Camp Perry or any other shooting venue.  There have been isolated reports of volunteers being treated worse than they should, but that isn't the norm.  Are you expecting a path of rose petals to be thrown at the feet of the shooters?
6.  So you have a story about hut reservations.  Problem solved...everybody gets a new hut now.  Again, I would rather have huts than no huts and a hotel.  If lodging SNAFUs start being a bigger problem than they are worth due to constant complaining, then all we will have to complain about is hotel overcrowding.

Good press is just that.  Instead of going out of your way to convince new shooters that "the conditions" are so bad that they should try IDPA instead, help out so we can keep the sport from declining any further.  Let's bring new shooters into the sport and let them tell us what THEY see as negatives that truly need to be fixed.  Let's let them decide about the conditions in our sport.  If they like the conditions, GREAT!  If they don't, there are millions of other gun owners that we can try to fix those problems for.
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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by TexasShooter on 3/20/2015, 6:25 pm

Whether the article's author is referring to Bullseye only or a combination of several precision pistol sports isn't entirely clear. Either way I thought it was still a positive article and was glad to see some good thoughts about Bullseye.

The comments in this thread that happenings at Camp Perry are going to drive shooters away from Bullseye make little sense to me. I'm the first to admit that most everyone here has more experience than I do - maybe that's why I'm so easily confused. I'll throw my newbie comments in here anyway:

Seems to me that the growth or decline of Bullseye is going to depend on what we do at the club level, not on what happens at Camp Perry or anywhere else. The US Open is not why several million people play golf, Wimbledon isn't the driving force behind the popularity of tennis, and the IDPA Nationals in Tulsa isn't why IDPA is growing so fast.

Maybe I'm missing something...but I'm just not following how a lousy mess hall at Camp Perry is keeping me from filling the firing line at our monthly club match.

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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by Rob Kovach on 3/20/2015, 6:29 pm

^^best post on this forum in a long time^^
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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by Jack H on 3/20/2015, 10:42 pm

^^best post on this forum in a long time^^

Yup.  Been my line of thought for a long time. 

Thanks Tex.

It takes work at the club level.  And in my club's case, there are only a few interested to pitch in.  Our outdoor match schedule starts Sunday with a 25 yd registered 2700.  Roddy and I have been out there fixing and setting up for days now.  2.5 vacation days for me and more days for Roddy.  And I still have not had time to zero the wad gun.
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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by Froneck on 3/21/2015, 2:09 am

First of All I'm not being negative! I'm repeating what others say! As far as the Benches, I don't have a problem with them, They are good enough to hold my gun box, what more do I need? But reading about the reason to make changes I think it was mentioned that the only thing holding the benches together is the paint! The target turning system seems to work OK too but I think last year one line was changed because the turning system failed. I wasn't on that line! But the NRA is using that as a reason to change to Electronic targets.
 Over the years there has been quite a bit of disrespect given to shooters, a few years ago they were disqualifying many shooters for light trigger pulls! One shooter just had his trigger checked by the AMU, he returned to the AMU trailer, they tested it and it passed, the shooter took it to another range and they passed it, when he returned to his range to request the disqualification to be removed he was told if he continued they will disqualify him for the entire match! He got the AMU to get in touch with the NRA officials together they returned to the range and found they were not weighing the triggers correctly so trigger weighing was suspended that year! Another issue, we were shooting team match, we decided to challenge a close call, one point could make a difference, we lost 5 points! Nest time we were very careful to be sure there were 10 holes in the target, all the hits were well in the scoring rings except the one close call! So again we challenged, we lost 7 points, we asked the referees to see the target because we thought they made a mistake, we were told NO! and if we continued to question their call we will be disqualified! Not only is that disrespectful, it's insulting!
 I liked eating at the old Mess hall that was damaged by the tornado, I have to admit they one day had some beef that I doubt could be cut with a chain saw! But I ate there 3 meals a day. Last year I went to the new so called mess hall, twice they were out of food! One day I went for breakfast and the didn't have coffee! Yes I like the the fact on not having to leave Camp Perry to eat. That old mess hall could easily handle the almost 1200 shooters and most ate there, I don't think I seen 20 shooters at one time in this newer version! It's not a mess hall it's a joke!
 Simply put Camp Perry is being mismanaged! That's why attendance is dropping and that was the point I was trying to make, years ago Management was done by former shooters like Ness, Blankenship, Higgenson, Reeves and others now it being run by those that never shot a match!
 Large amounts of Pitman Roberts money was used at Perry but didn't help the shooters! Yes they finally are supposed to have all new huts, but the crowd was told and my first trip to Perry they will all be replaced the following year. That was in 1982! Yes they spent money but not on anything for the shooters! Though you can blame Ohio for that but they took sportsman money to fix a National Guard Base! 
 Bottom line is I like going to Camp Perry, been going there 33 consecutive years! I can say I'm responsible for getting at least 20 shooter going there too! If they would do things to make the shooters happy that large one time crowd will return! Electronic Targets is not going to do it! My second year there they had over 1200 shooter register, they were worried they might have had to set-up another range but because of the No-Shows only 4 ranges were needed! Each year it's been getting smaller! BTW Zinns don't like the Electronic Target change either!
 I want to see the sport grow, I'm willing to stand up and do what ever can be done to see that it will grow not be herded into doing what a bunch on non shooters think a match should be! That's not Negative that's being Pro Active!

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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by dronning on 3/21/2015, 8:54 am

Clay pointed out so well Camp Perry has nothing to do with the number of people competing in Bullseye.

There wouldn't be millions of golfers if there were only 1 or 2 golf courses in every State.

In MN we have a range fully equipped with turning targets (I think it's 20-24 lanes) that sits idle because no member from that range is willing to run any bulleseye matches. We do have 10 matches scheduled at other ranges (mostly Oakdale) this summer but it could be at least 15-18 with that other range open. We are driving distance from matches in WI, IA, IL and NE. so they get a few shooters from MN on the weekends there isn't a match scheduled in MN.

Having a place to compete is part of the local problem too.

- Dave

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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by Froneck on 3/21/2015, 10:37 am

Yes I agree, Having a place to compete is a problem. It's a lot of work to run a match! When I first came to the club I'm at now they were not running matches, 48 well made turning targets doing nothing! 4 or 5 guys shot once a week. Same excuse, pistol shooting is a dieing sport, no one will come to the match because we are in the center of PA, etc., etc. If I had recorded the meetings it will sound exactly as it does now! I started running matches, made enough money to pay to cover the entire 48 target line. But soon I'm being told I'm wrong, most of it coming from guys that never shot a match! Everyone else had better ideas! One match I ran had over 400 shooters but tired of the bitching and complaining I was getting I stopped doing it! Last year that 400 shooter match was canceled because a week before the match one shooter was registered! In 5 years it was run into the ground because the shooters didn't like the way it was run, the shooter told me of their reasons they stopped shooting our matches and will be happy to return if I again run the match but I had enough! I see the same thing happening at many other clubs. There are a lot of shooters interested in shooting so the number of shooters is not the problem. What's needed is well run matches that are enjoyable to attend. I know of 10 ranges that one time had great matches that are no longer running matches!
 My intention is to try to get the bullseye shooters to collectively voice their desire to shoot well run matches because if we don't the number on matches to shoot will get smaller!
 The biggest problem I see is the mighty dollar! Seems everyone is trying to extract as much money a possible from the shooters while offering little  return!

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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by Rob Kovach on 3/21/2015, 9:44 pm

Froneck,
Can you offer any insight into what you did to make your match successful before you quit?
Any insight into what your successor did wrong that caused the participants to stop coming?
Do you know why the other 10 matches that used to be successful stopped running?
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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by Guest on 3/22/2015, 9:00 am

I want to put in a plug for Oakdale.  I am one of the Wisconsin people that shoot there.  Great facility, well run matches and friendly people. Just roughly 10 miles past Hudson, Wisconsin off of I94.

Chip


Last edited by ChipEck on 3/22/2015, 9:01 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling)

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Re: Positive Bullseye Article

Post by Froneck on 3/22/2015, 9:41 am

What I did was simple, being a shooter and shooting other matches I was able to talk to the shooters and understood what their thoughts of what made a good match. When shooting in a particular area usually in a reasonable travel distance from home you get to know most of the shooters. One time I shot a match well within that distance but none of the usual crowd showed up! The following match I asked why none of the group shot the other match and was told why! I found they rate matches as one they will go to if they had nothing better to do or one that is a can't miss regardless of what other matches there are!
 The matches that were ended that were very popular was because of help! One large match in Bristol Tenn. ended because the guy and his wife running it were getting old and couldn't keep up. They offered to help anyone that was willing to take over but no one wanted to! Another really great match ended because the other non pistol members wanted more return, They guy running it paid for the food, trophies, cash prizes and won guns out of his pocket and that sill wasn't enough, The club charged a guy $5 to pitch a tent to stay the night! They shot about 300 shooters including the AMU and Marine teams! Ended because the guy running it had enough!
 With our club it was a number of things, being away from easy access to food, I provided a free lunch but it was quite a spread. It really wasn't free, I increased the match fee to cover the cost and told everyone I did! Simply because it was easier that way and not have to worry about having a cashier or a pile of money to make change! The guy that took over Had his wife and daughter provide the food including breakfast. They were up early and mid day they were tired, so the announced they were closing the food at the end of the previous relay's rapid fire and the next rely was putting their stuff on the bench, problem was that entire next relay didn't eat. They waited until they completed the center fire match! That pissed off a lot of shooters that starved thru 45 and Ball knowing they paid for a lunch! I told the guy to let his wife and daughter go but leave the food on the table, after the match I'll clean it up. But no they put everything away and the club shooters had a shoot night dinner with it!
 Having a successful match is easy if your a shooter, analyze why you go to a match. What will make you want to return or rate a match as a go to if you had nothing better to do. Understand that ego is one of the main reasons yet most will not admit it! Boost a shooters ego and he will over look minor problems, Damage his ego and those minor problems become major ones!

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