Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

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Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by 22lover on Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

Hello All,
I appreciate all of you for the valuable information, I have been new to bullseye, and learned quite a bit from looking at your posts.

I wanted to throw a questions out there to get the bullseye experienced opinions

what current production handguns can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group or better at 50 yards with ransom rest

not limited to 1911's; I know les baer has their guarantee with some of their guns, but are there any others that you know about, revolvers?, striker fired?, or
do high end cz-75's, sig sauer x5's

answers limited to current production guns, can be mass produced custom; any caliber

thanks

peter

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by inthebeech on Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:15 am

I've heard that the Freedom Arms will easily do three inches at twice the distance.
Just sayin'.
Laughing

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by james r chapman on Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:29 am

I had a XP 100 that would shoot MOA too...

Not much of a bullseye gun though.

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by Froneck on Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:43 am

First you must understand what a production gun is. The parts are mass produced, dimensions have a tolerance (Tolerance is the allowable deviation of the dimension specified) The pistols are then assembled by production line workers that know little more that put part a is location b and insert screw c. Some guns will have the tolerance add up to create a tack driver and others that can't shoot any group at 50 yards no matter what load is used. The majority end up some place in the middle of that range. Don't fall for the CNC hype! That means nothing! The more complex the pistol the greater the chance of added error. The 1911 has quite a few moving parts and is harder to mass produce and get great accuracy than an auto-loading .22. With the revolver having the barrel attached to the frame limits fitting error but the rotating cylinder increases it. When getting to something like the XP-100 there are very few moving parts associated with the bullet going out of the barrel so as long as the barrel is accurate it will shoot good.

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by Wobbley on Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:17 am

I sure wish people would quit confusing tolerance and clearance.  Tolerance is allowed variation.  Clearance is the space designed in between parts.  A part can be machined with tolerances measured in millionths but it is the clearances that determine the accuracy. A custom builder makes the clearances minimum and that makes the gun accurate.  They don't usually care what the size ends up so they have a large tolerance.  In design and machine work what they do is matched/mated parts.

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by LenV on Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:18 pm

I have already put my .02 worth in on this subject but that won't stop me from putting a couple more in. I don't know why 22Lover limited his question about revolvers to 38/357. I personally think the model of 1955 25-2 in 45acp is one of the most accurate wheel guns S&W ever made. (old gun, made right) I know the OP asked for current production but unless he is planning on purchasing pistols for a team then all he needs is the right one. The advantages of the 25-2 are obvious over a 38. You can pre-load moon clips for the entire match, can be used in CF 45 and Reeves matches. They haven't been made for a long time. But you can still find new ones. Model of 1950 would work also.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=474427534

Looking at the pistol above it looks like one of the rare Model 1955 that has a Model 1950 barrel. That happened till they ran out of 1950 barrels.


Last edited by OldMaster65 on Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:46 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added info)

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by Froneck on Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:00 pm

I had a very large machine shop, 35,000 square foot with just about every kind of machine there is.  Did everything from Missile guidance, military components to machinery replacement components. I designed and built Ultra-Sound  test station that had to measure Medical Ultra-Sound heads that are measured in Nano Seconds! I'm an Electrical and Mechanical Engineer, My father was a Machinist(Tool & Die) I was running lathes since I was 10 years old!  Yes tolerance can be measured in millionths!, Clearance is also measured! If you had a gun built to a tolerance of millionths it would cost you probably a $1,000,000  The average micrometer is in .001 increments, Better ones in .0001, None in .000001. I do precision work on a Jig Borer that is accurate to .0001. A Bridgeport type milling machine could never come close to that! Yes clearance is the space between the parts, it's needed so the parts will fit together, also to allow lubrication between the parts. Simply put a 1.0000 pin will not fit in a 1.000 hole! There must be some clearance! Yes a 1.003 pin can be put into a 1.000 hole if the part with the hole is heated and expands, inserting the pin and when cooled it can never be removed without ripping the pieces apart! Yes a Custom builder will select or make mating parts to limit unintended movement. That's what a custom gun is! But you will never get a production gun built to that level! Gun parts made to +/- .001 are rare , that is relativity a close tolerance! Tolerance is determined by the fit or clearance required. Builders like Les Baer don't make parts except maybe a few, they buy the parts and hand fit selected sizes to give opium performance. You will never get that from a production manufacturer!
 I don't confuse the issue! I work with it 7 days a week, I have just about every tool in the Starrett catalog, 3 tool makers microscopes and 4 optical comparators, I can measure the scratch on the face of a sear! But tolerance on dimension is not only size but location too! In the case of a revolver the locational tolerance can determine the exact location the hole for the barrel  bored in the frame, the location of the cylinder, the location of the notches in the cylinder for the pawl, the location of each chamber in the cylinder and so on! All effect accuracy! What does that have to do with clearance?

 As Old Master pointed out some of those older guns were very accurate, made on regular machinery by skilled machinists and assembled by someone that took their time selected parts and buit a good shooting gun because the buyers demanded it. That's not done anymore!

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by kjanracing on Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:03 pm

Are there any checks or tests an owner can do on his/her 1911 to tell how it might shoot or if it needs work?  My  RO slide seems tight, as does the barrel bushing.  The breach end seems to fit up tightly, no movement that I can tell.  Any thing to check other than that?

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by Joe L on Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:57 pm

From today.  $450 CZ P-09, after bullseye practice with the Kadet and CZ-97. 


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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by Froneck on Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:42 pm

kjanracing wrote:Are there any checks or tests an owner can do on his/her 1911 to tell how it might shoot or if it needs work?  My  RO slide seems tight, as does the barrel bushing.  The breach end seems to fit up tightly, no movement that I can tell.  Any thing to check other than that?
 You can check to see how well the hood fits the notch  in the slide. Another test is to let the slide close and push down on the barrel in front of the hood to see if it will move down, I like to do it with a dummy round, put it in the clip and release the slide and chamber the dummy, then push down on the barrel. Another thing I like to do to check the gun is install the slide stop pin so that it's not in the hole in the frame that allows it to be pushed up to lock the slide. Let it hang down, close the slide and check to see how tight it is.

Frank


Last edited by Froneck on Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by knightimac on Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:53 pm

The most accurate revolver I ever owned was a 5 inch model 625. I could routinely shoot around 3 inch groups at 50 yards with 185 grain semi-wadcutters using 4.0 bullseye.

My Springfield loaded stainless will shoot between 3.5 and 4 inches at 50 yards. The gun is bone stock.  200 grain semi-wadcutter powered by 4.2 grains bull's-eye powder.

I also have a model 325 PD smith 45 revolver that will group around 4 inches at 50 with same load as Springfield loaded.

All shooting done off sandbags

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by LenV on Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:28 pm

I mentioned in an earlier post that my KTM ( Kimber Target Match) was a tack driver but they only made 1000 of them and are very hard to find. These are a series 70 pistol and went through their custom shop like the Super Match. Well.....1 just came up on GunBroker. I would grab it but I have mine. Smile

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=475331592

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by Jack H on Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:33 pm

OldMaster65 wrote:I mentioned in an earlier post that my KTM ( Kimber Target Match) was a tack driver but they only made 1000 of them and are very hard to find. These are a series 70 pistol and went through their custom shop like the Super Match. Well.....1 just came up on GunBroker. I would grab it but I have mine. Smile

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=475331592

Then that is not a production gun.  I think there is no off the shelf gun that will compete gun for gun with a purpose built BE gun.  And very few "custom Shop" versions as well will not compete.  I think this will be the shortcoming of the production categories starting up these days.

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by Ghillieman on Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:12 pm

The Pardini GT45 straight from the factory will do that easily.

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:34 am

There is a lot of discussion on the forum about Les Baer 1911s and lack of long term accuracy due to the barrel fit.   What causes this?

Cheers,
Derek

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by Froneck on Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:05 am

There area number of places the barrel must be fitted to the slide correctly. The hood, the lugs, both upper and lower. and the bushing. Not only must the bushing fit into the slide so that is don't move, the barrel must also fit well and allow the barrel to pivot vertically to allow the locking lugs to enter the lug cuts in the slide. Also there is the barrel too! There are quite a few good barrel makers but even the best have an occasional bad barrel! A gunsmith friend of mine was pulling his hair out trying to make a pistol he built shoot a good group. No matter what he tried it would not shoot. He changed the barrel and it shot great. He then made a barrel testing device and tested the barrels before doing anything with them. He would buy 10 barrels at a time and tested them, told me most barrel are good, a few are outstanding and shoot exceptionally good and one or two that were totally no good and he sent them back.
 Most of those that want the "production class" don't realize that it too get's expensive! What is production? can anyone really tell if a "stock" gun as been worked on? I can't remember what match required "stock production" revolvers but a number of dealers were buying large lots and testing them. Sold the ones that shot great for quite a bit more money. Working a "production" gun to make it more accurate requires more work, getting a gun that shoots better than most others then doing the work so that it is not detectable will eventually cost more money.

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by Jerry Keefer on Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:43 am

Froneck wrote:


He would buy 10 barrels at a time and tested them, told me most barrel are good, a few are outstanding and shoot exceptionally good and one or two that were totally no good and he sent them back.
 
I believe I know that man..SmileSmile
Also made a very good barrel tester, if that would be him..If it is, I believe he has tested more barrels, than any man, dead or alive. We discussed it many times on the phone.. Have not heard form him lately.. Hope all is well.

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by Froneck on Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:31 am

George Madore? Unfortunately he passed away. Taught me quite a bit! Another good smith Floyd Aikman also passed away. I have all the parts needed to make the tester, just have to find time to do it! Will do it soon, also have all the parts needed to make two 45's. Right now I'm working on my AW-93 when ever I have a few minutes to spare! Decided to remove the Rink Grips I purchased and fitted at Perry. I think I will like the 1911 style better. AMU has a tester too! They too test the barrels before building around them.
 As far as I know, George didn't sell barrel testers, I was told someone does but it's kinda pricy, also they will test barrels too. George made his tester. AMU uses a converted rifle barrel tester.

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by Jerry Keefer on Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:46 pm

Froneck wrote:George Madore? Unfortunately he passed away. Taught me quite a bit! Another good smith Floyd Aikman also passed away. I have all the parts needed to make the tester, just have to find time to do it! Will do it soon, also have all the parts needed to make two 45's. Right now I'm working on my AW-93 when ever I have a few minutes to spare! Decided to remove the Rink Grips I purchased and fitted at Perry. I think I will like the 1911 style better. AMU has a tester too! They too test the barrels before building around them.
 As far as I know, George didn't sell barrel testers, I was told someone does but it's kinda pricy, also they will test barrels too. George made his tester. AMU uses a converted rifle barrel tester.
I have one also.....David Sams sales a very nice tester.. They are expensive, because of the amount precision work involved.
No, I never knew George Madore.. Worked on several of his guns..I did converse some with Floyd.. when I machined 41 barrels from Lilja blanks.. Floyd used McGowen blanks..

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by Froneck on Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:28 pm

Jerry Keefer wrote:
Froneck wrote:George Madore? Unfortunately he passed away. Taught me quite a bit! Another good smith Floyd Aikman also passed away. I have all the parts needed to make the tester, just have to find time to do it! Will do it soon, also have all the parts needed to make two 45's. Right now I'm working on my AW-93 when ever I have a few minutes to spare! Decided to remove the Rink Grips I purchased and fitted at Perry. I think I will like the 1911 style better. AMU has a tester too! They too test the barrels before building around them.
 As far as I know, George didn't sell barrel testers, I was told someone does but it's kinda pricy, also they will test barrels too. George made his tester. AMU uses a converted rifle barrel tester.
I have one also.....David Sams sales a very nice tester.. They are expensive, because of the amount precision work involved.
No, I never knew George Madore.. Worked on several of his guns..I did converse some with Floyd.. when I machined 41 barrels from Lilja blanks.. Floyd used McGowen blanks..
Yes I know Floyd used McGowen Blanks, he had them made to Hammerli specs. Sent them to me and I made then for the 41 leaving that area where it locked into the frame oversize so he could fit them.
 Well I have to get to work, it's piling up!! Was supposed to shoot a .22 match but my AW is in pieces so I have that project to complete too! Went to do a good mounting job for the Insight MRDS scope, ordered 3mm dowel pins, removed the scope to find it has all different size holes in the base! two .136'" a .121 and a .119 all bigger than the Doctor 3mm (.117). I called Eotech to get the number for Insight, guy asked me what the problem was, to told him and he said they have no problem fitting them on a Doctor base, I said Yeah they will fit, the holes are bigger than the pins! So then he decided to give me Insights number! So far Insight hasn't gotten back to me, tomorrow it will be a week!

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by Rob Kovach on Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:44 am

Are there any checks or tests an owner can do on his/her 1911 to tell how it might shoot or if it needs work?  My  RO slide seems tight, as does the barrel bushing.  The breach end seems to fit up tightly, no movement that I can tell.  Any thing to check other than that?
The best test is to shoot it on the best rest you have available.  If it shoots less than the 3" group that you are looking for, you don't need to worry anymore!

Any production gun is going to have "room for improvement" from a good bullseye gunsmith, but if it shoots to your expected accuracy, you are probably going to see better scores with dryfiring than by spending gunsmith money.

Rob Kovach
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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:11 am

I found this article to be helpful since I don't have the experience of the Gunsmiths on the board to inspect a factory 1911 prior to purchase.  This article by David (Dave) Sams titled, "A Day With A Master Gunsmith" was written for Shooting Sports USA magazine in 2009 and is a great resource in my opinion on how to inspect a Bullseye 1911 or any 1911 if your looking to get a really great feel for the prospective performance or detect issues. I wish I had this resource when I was picking 1911s, and hope others find it useful on how to get the most out of a production 1911 or when buying a used pistol.

Shooting Sports USA - A Day With A Master Gunsmith Article Hyperlink - June 2009




Last edited by JayhawkNavy02 on Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:53 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

Post by Froneck on Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:59 am

That article has a lot of good information and gives more information than I was able to quickly write here. The 1911 is a rather complex gun, most have no idea as to how it actually operates. I would suggest that shooters wanting to move-up in classification find a good gunsmith that has a very good understanding of the 1911 as required for competition use. Have the work done that way. I can't begin to start telling how many guns I had or worked on that were totally screwed up by someone not knowing what they were doing!
 Remember not only does it have to shoot a good group but it must function reliably too! Trying to shoot a good score while worrying if the gun will function is not good.

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Re: Any current production handgun that can shoot 10 shot 3 inch group at 50 yards with Ransom Rest

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