Firing pin block question

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Firing pin block question

Post by LenV on Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:25 pm

This is a question that has been bothering me for some time. Believe me, I share the frustration that a lot of shooters have with Colts FPB. When you pull the trigger back you are also moving the block out of the way. This adds to the frustration of getting a consistent feel/pull. But the Kimber is a totally different animal. The FPB is moved out of the way when you squeeze the grip safety. This happens once for each string and I can't tell/feel any difference. I am not a gunsmith. I just shoot the things (well, I play with triggers) but if there is something I am missing here please point me in the right direction. I like the Kimber and think they make a nice shooting pistol. I never said "great shooting" that would be something that takes a BE smith to make happen.

Len

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by Jon Eulette on Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:01 pm

You are correct the Kimber disengages the firing pin block in the slide when the grip safety is depressed. The Colt is disengaged by squeezing the trigger.  The trigger bow pushes a lever which pushes another lever which then disengages the firing pin block. So you're feeling those levers each time you squeeze the trigger. So the additional rubbing/pushing of the levers into a plunger with spring resistance is what you are feeling with each pull.
Hopefully I answered the right question.
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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by LenV on Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:10 pm

Nope, but you agreed with me so you have to be right. Smile The question is really about the Kimber. Except for being upset with the lawyers is there anything that would make the Kimber II series (trigger) a problem for a gunsmith?
Len

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:41 pm

I believe the Series 80 safety on a Colt can be easily removed for a few bucks, effectively making it a Series 70.  No idea on Kimber. 

http://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/frame-parts/frame-hardware/fillers/tj-s-1911-series-80-to-series-70-conversion-shims-prod13121.aspx


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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by Jon Eulette on Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:43 pm

Tolerances are marginal and unless completely refinishing the pistol after a build the factory finish sucks. Could care less about the firing pin block,  but not my first choice. 
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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by Virgil Kane on Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:32 am

JayhawkNavy02 wrote:I believe the Series 80 safety on a Colt can be easily removed for a few bucks, effectively making it a Series 70.  No idea on Kimber. 

http://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/frame-parts/frame-hardware/fillers/tj-s-1911-series-80-to-series-70-conversion-shims-prod13121.aspx



I may be wrong but I thought that installing one of these blocks would in effect make the gun illegal to use at Perry because it removes one of the safety features of the series 80. I had also heard that these were really designed  for just fitting of trigger group parts and not intended to be used as an every day fix for the Series 80.

Like I said, I may be wrong with my thinking. Maybe one of the more knowledgeable shooters  can chime in about these shims.


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"All standard safety features of the firearm must operate properly."

Post by Richard Ashmore on Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:00 am

Virgil Kane wrote:
JayhawkNavy02 wrote:I believe the Series 80 safety on a Colt can be easily removed for a few bucks, effectively making it a Series 70.  No idea on Kimber. 

http://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/frame-parts/frame-hardware/fillers/tj-s-1911-series-80-to-series-70-conversion-shims-prod13121.aspx



I may be wrong but I thought that installing one of these blocks would in effect make the gun illegal to use at Perry because it removes one of the safety features of the series 80. I had also heard that these were really designed  for just fitting of trigger group parts and not intended to be used as an every day fix for the Series 80.

Like I said, I may be wrong with my thinking. Maybe one of the more knowledgeable shooters  can chime in about these shims.


Virgil

It's illegal at any NRA sanctioned Conventional Pistol event.  Rules 3.1, 3.2, and 3.3 each state clearly "All standard safety features of the firearm must operate properly."

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by DavidR on Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:12 am

Sad but yes it makes a gun illegal per the nra rules, will anyone ever know, doubt it unless its on a ball gun. So its one of those times when the little devil on one shoulder and the little angel on the other and your caught trying to decide which to listen too. Laughing

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by Froneck on Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:30 am

I'm not sure if the firing pin block removal will be against NRA rules if you have a little customizing done. A few years ago I had a long slide modified series 70. Many years ago I cut off my shooting finger so I shoot with my middle finger. The Grip safety was always a problem So I made a one piece trigger spring housing, not functional grip safety with beaver tail. I was questioned about it by Boyd the NRA Ref at Perry so I took it to the NRA to determine if it was legal. I was told it was a custom gun therefore it need not be there, if it was there I couldn't block it. I told my son Adam and he had the same one piece back strap built for his Bullseye gun as well as a few other AMU team members.
 According to the NRA if I were shooting a stock 1911 all safeties must work but if it was customized and worked on to become a tack driver it's not stock!

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by DavidR on Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:41 am

Interesting idea, would like to here a ruling on that from the nra, I know many people shooting the IZH 35 changed out the factory grips with ones which covered a grip safety and I never saw one disqualified.

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by james r chapman on Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:14 am

Well then removing it would be considered customizing it. I don't see that happening

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by Froneck on Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:47 am

I would assume that if you brought the gun to the line as is out of the box and remove the block it may be a problem. I know a few years ago everyone was removing them from the Series 80 Colts. Gunsmiths were doing trigger jobs with the block removed and not replacing the parts needed if you signed a paper. I assume someone got hurt and it was decided that the user is not the expert, the gunsmith is therefore that signed paper was worthless. So the smiths were doing the work without the parts needed for the block, then replacing the parts returning the gun with a fully functional block. If the shooter removed it the fault was then his.
 So the bottom line is get the work done, take it to Perry ask if it's legal to remove and remove it if it is.

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by Bullshooter on Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:00 am

Len,

Regarding the Kimber firing pin block, since it is deactivated by the grip safety, it is in no way detrimental to achieving a good trigger pull. I've been able to get as good a trigger job done with Kimbers as a "Series 70" type 1911. I don't care for their MIM fire control parts however.

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by DavidR on Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:15 pm

As to the block on a 80 series, I have had a one with all parts intact that had a great trigger it was built by the original old military smith Joe Chambers, so you can get a decent trigger without taking it out.

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by Jon Eulette on Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:35 pm

It's not a matter of can you get a good trigger job with the series 80, it's just a pain in the rear for the gunsmith. Extra time and effort.
Jon

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by dstates on Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:43 pm

As far as the rules go.  I've had a few emails back and forth with the NRA.. They say if you turn a series 80 into a series 70 then that is against the rules.  I was even asking about other custimization items like replacing an ILS mainspring housing with a standard GI one, they said a lot of people might be doing it, but that doesn't make it right.  They kept repeating "all standard safety features must still function". 

The person I spoke to did admit that there isn't anything in the rules specific to custom pistols.  He recommended I send in a request for it to be reviewed in October during the committe meeting.  It probably wouldn't hurt for a few of us to ask for more clarifications on what is a "safety feature" on a customized pistol.

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by james r chapman on Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:46 pm

Sounds to me if the original parts are designed for specific safety devices, they must be in place. No 80's slides made into 70's.

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by james r chapman on Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:47 pm

As to the ILS, didn't/doesn't S.A. offer a non-ILS replacement ?

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by Virgil Kane on Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:50 pm

james r chapman wrote:Sounds to me if the original parts are designed for specific safety devices, they must be in place. No 80's slides made into 70's.


How about a series 80 frame with a Caspian series 70 slide?

I was once told if the frame is a series 80 it must have all the series 80 safety features on the slide also.


I'm so confused!    confused     LOL


Virgil


Sorry for highjacking this thread.

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by Bullshooter on Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:58 pm

Series 80 levers, firing pin safeties, non-captive half-cock notches, oh my !
I bet John Browning is glad he doesn't live in the 21st century!

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by DavidR on Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:03 pm

As to the ILS, it has been debated that it is a locking devise not a safety

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by GrumpyOldMan on Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:24 pm

Bullshooter wrote:Len,

Regarding the Kimber firing pin block, since it is deactivated by the grip safety, it is in no way detrimental to achieving a good trigger pull. I've been able to get as good a trigger job done with Kimbers as a "Series 70" type 1911. I don't care for their MIM fire control parts however.

Walt
My experience exactly with the Kimber.

Except for MIM parts. I've had more genuine Colt and others' forged parts break than MIM parts. I'm talking old-school stuff made in the 1950s through 70s, and NOT fired 10,000 rounds per year either.

Just a bit more sear work on a Series 80 out in the shop and it will be as good as the pre-Series 70 stuff I've played with. A faint feeling of a second spring kicking in early in the first stage is no big deal. The biggest problem for me is re-assembly, but even clumsy me can get that down.

I want a firing pin block, one that works properly and doesn't jack up the trigger. Even the Glock trigger doesn't suffer from the FP block...it's just not nice and can be "fixed" only so far for other reasons...

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by dstates on Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:30 am

I tried the "lock vs. safety" argument and even that the SA manual says it is "not to replace any safety features".  Got a reply that just said "all standard safety features must remain functional"...

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by Rob Kovach on Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:16 am

ILS is not a safety feature.  It's a lock.

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Re: Firing pin block question

Post by james r chapman on Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:49 am

Not unlike the SCOTUS, if they don't specify it as a safety device, it's not.

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Re: Firing pin block question

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