Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

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Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by beeser on Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:08 am

Will practice with an air pistol improve or help my performance using a 1911 or other type of firearm pistol?  Any downsides to using one?

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:15 am

Air pistol helps to reinforce proper follow through.
Kind of like shooting a S&W 52  make a small error & see big results.
Or I could be wrong

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by jmdavis on Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:33 am

I asked this same question to three of my mentors last week. One is Double Distinguished (Rifle, Pistol) and the other two are Pistol Distinguished and 2600+ shooters. All agreed that there is benefit to air pistol work. 

In my case, if nothing else, it lets me shoot 10m in the backyard (small house). What I did discover is that it can be tricky to try to match the AP trigger with the 22, CF or 45 trigger. But, there are some out there with more adjustment than others. 

I shot an old FWB 65 the other day. It has a switch on the side to change the trigger from International 500 grams to ~ 3lbs. Most of the modern guns can be adjusted up to the .22 level if you choose but they are happiest around 500 grams (1.1lb). 

Don't let your initial scores distract or depress you. The AP target is small, but good shots are good shots and that is what you are looking for. If you take good shots the score will work itself out. 

That was another thing that all three have told me. Concentrate on good shots and let the score work itself out.

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by beeser on Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:19 pm

I'm in the process of re-evaluating my practice/training and have decided to spend more time dry firing and spending less time at the range.  I find it hard to discipline myself to dry fire and am afraid that the boring activity might turn me off to the process.  I realize firing an air pistol isn't dry firing but it might liven things up a bit if boredom begins to set in.  I have a somewhat large barn and workshop that might be an ideal spot to set up an indoor range and about 10 acres for an outdoor range if it becomes more practical.  I'm trying to come up with a regime that capitalizes on Keith Sanderson's dry firing to shooting ratio of 100:1 but more realistically tailored to my abilities.

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by jmdavis on Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:39 pm

When dryfire is boring, add another element. For example pull out  your cellphone and use one of the apps to do 1 shot drills at either a target or a blank wall. This adds an element of stress since you are firing to the commands and limited to 2 seconds for the shot.  If indoors make sure that you have sight lights for front sight focus. 

The airpistol certainly adds an element. But the airpistol can also provide negative and positive reinforcement. The thing about dryfire in general is that the reinforcement is positive. 

Lanny Bassham talks about progressive training of dryfire, group shooting (and/or blank target) and then shooting as you would in matches. By the time that you dryfire a significant amount you should find that your groups are already "tight", when you are ready to shoot for real you are shooting well and not reinforcing as many negative shots. 

You should see positive results even if you can only dryfire at 10 or 20 to 1 instead of 100 to 1.

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by Froneck on Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:03 pm

I dry fire 200-20x all the time but my gun shoots bad at the range! Dry fire helps but nothing is better than shooting at a target. The hole in the target is proof that everything is done right! When I was working up the classification ladder I shot every match I could get to. At my range I worked on items that gave me problems at the matches. When I finally put things together I went from Marksman to Master in one year! There was no High Master then and I kinda stopped shooting so as to help my son get to the top. Now he is one of the top shooters, I'm working on guns for myself and will start shooting again! Adam shot at the range everyday after school and before he went to sleep he had an Air Pistol target in his bedroom and shot 20 rounds every night!
 Remember the score you shoot is the test of what you learned, with out testing your skills you become an armchair master!. You can read every article ever written about shooting, Dry fire 8 hours a day and never gain skills needed to shoot good! Now that I'm back shooting again there are quite a few guys at the club that shoot a better score that I do at our range but when at a match, it's the other way around. Shoot the matches, that's the finial exam!

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by jmdavis on Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:25 pm

The shooting is the test and there is certainly test value to training. IE Studies have shown that tests and self tests help us learn and increase the speed of learning. Matches are that test. 

But multiple pistol and rifle National and Olympic Champions and medalists have told me that dryfire is the BEST thing that a shooter can do to improve.  I don't dryfire 8 hours a day. I dryfire 30 minutes to one hour a day when I am not shooting. When I am at the range training, I will often dryfire 10 shots before firing a single live shot. I also shoot blank targets and run through the USMC training workbook. 

The goal is good shots and dryfire helps with those. If you don't learn the information, you cannot perform well on the exam. I have never been afraid to shoot a match. My first Across the Course Rifle match was an EIC. I made mistakes but I have no regrets.

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by john bickar on Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:10 pm

Yes.

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by beeser on Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:25 pm

OK, I'm convinced that it would be a worthwhile effort and moved the question about what air pistol to get over to the Equipment section.

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by C.Perkins on Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:38 pm

A few years ago when I was in expert class working hard on master, I hit a slump where no matter what I did that I just could not get over the hump.

Dusted off my Steyr and started shooting 10M a lot and kind of stayed away from BE except for the occasional practice match. Did this for about 3 months. Figured maybe I just needed a break and step back for a moment.

While shooting 10M a lot more and shooting a few BE matches noticed my scores were better.
After a few months went back to full time BE and occasional 10M.

I made master a few months after the switch up.

10M sharpens your focus on sight movement and holding ability.
Learned that you cannot hold the sight still no matter your holding ability but trust your self to just let the shot go. We get caught up in watching that sight or red dot dance around the target that we just cannot let the shot go unless it is perfect. Too late, the perfect picture is long gone by the time the shot was released.
Another way to look at it is that the perfect picture was just about to happen when the shot released.
Trust in yourself and let it go and 9 times out of 10 it will be a good shot.

And the best part of 10M shooting is learning trigger control.

Good sight picture, good hold and good trigger release is what you will learn from 10M AP shooting.
Well, it did for me anyway.

Just moved to a new home in the WI stix with a large 4 car garage.
Can you guess what I am going to construct inside of that garage Smile

Clarence

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by robert84010 on Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:31 pm

I have a somewhat similar story to Clarence's. After shooting a military match in 2006 and placing roughly equal to the amount of practice I put in to prepare for that match I immediately bought a Daisy 747. From May to the week of Camp Perry I practiced about 4-5 days a week, about 30-40 rounds a session. 30-40 rounds sounds like two matches I know at CP, right.
Well after that little bit of practice with an out of the box 747 I made the P100. not only made it but top 20 even, and it was solely because of the air pistol steady diet. 
YOu do not need a high dollar AP to learn, it's not the lack of X's that kill a score, it's the 8's and wider and that is all caused by trigger control. A 747 might be harder to shoot tens with but when you consistently shoot a 9 ring group, no 8's, you will see gains on the bullseye line. Or look to find an older Euro pump or CO2.
Hey, I like to throw money at problems too but throw your money into pellets, not an air pistol that can win the Olympics when that's not your goal.

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by C.Perkins on Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:48 pm

Very well stated Robert.
I especially like the last sentence, made me laugh(in a good way Smile)
I have always been about investing in good equipment and if someone wants to try AP to improve their fundamentals then your statement is rock solid.

As far as the OP, I believe this is the situation.
I, myself shot free pistol and still shoot air pistol, so there is a difference.

Good thread.

Clarence

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by robert84010 on Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:12 pm

the 747 is a brick. I'm not trying to sell it as anything great, but it's no more of a brick than any 1911. except one from Jerry! no disrespect to any gunsmith's 1911's but they are bricks compared to any euro air pistol or 22. so why buy a Ferrari to practice when you have to drive a Model T in competition. ESPECIALLY when you are starting.

If air pistol becomes a pursuit then by all means buy a nice Steyr or whatever. I had a Hammerli and it was great. I have a LP1 and LP5 they are great too, neither one helped my 1911 scores like that 747, just shooting for groups.

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:48 pm

I've been looking for a used 777 for that reason but they can be elusive to locate.  I found one but it was in bad shape.  May end up buying a new 747

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by beeser on Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:18 pm

I have to be realistic and say that it would get old quick having to pump every shot, at least for me.  So, I would prefer something that all I would have to do at most is place a pellet into the gun.  I understand that you can get quite a few shots with one charge with a compressed air gun.

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by Rob Kovach on Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:11 pm

Pumping the gun isn't a big deal.

I really like Robert's post about buying a Ferrari to mimic driving a Model T.
Beeser,
You asked about shooting air pistol to help your .45 scores. A $5000 air pistol with an electronic trigger isn't going to help your .45 scores as much as a Daisy 747 will.

The Daisy will do all the things the high end pistol will for your training.  Help your hold, stop you from moving the gun when the trigger is pulled, help you with your shot process for slowfire, and help you with your trigger control.

A Ferrari grade air pistol is going to have a 500g trigger that you can barely feel.  That wont do much for the trigger control you are seeking for your 1911.  The 747 has a trigger that will be a much better trigger control trainer than something fancier.

....and they are no slouch.  I have an IZH-46 now, and I still haven't bested the 92% score I shot with a borrowed 747.

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by beeser on Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:10 pm

After reading dronning's post in the other thread (Equipment section) I did a little more research on the Steyr LP5/LP50 and it seemed like a good fit, to wit:

The grip can be configured like the 1911.
It has about the same sight radius as a 1911.
There are different triggers for it, one that has a heavier pull similar to a 1911.
According Pilkguns "it's a favorite among NRA Bullseye shooter for home training".
It comes with a mount for a red dot.

The only drawback that I've been able to uncover is the $2100 price tag but as others have mentioned, used ones come up for sale occasionally for much less.

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by Rob Kovach on Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:27 pm

the 747 brand new is $200 at www.champchoice.com

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by dronning on Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:57 am

beeser wrote:
It comes with a mount for a red dot.

The only drawback that I've been able to uncover is the $2100 price tag but as others have mentioned, used ones come up for sale occasionally for much less.

Doesn't come with a mount for a red dot, what looks like a red dot mount in the pic are actually air ports. Red dot rib is +$140, the 1911 grip is +$105. New it would be $2345.

I got one used with both the 200-600gram & the 4lb triggers ($245 option when you get both), red dot rib and grip for $1600 and I thought it was a steal, I looked quite a while.

I've seen only a very few LP5/50 for less than $1200. If you wanted it set up with a 1911 grip and red dot you would add $245 and a 4lb trigger another $245.

I've shot the 747, it's a vey nice AP for the money, it will get the job done!

- Dave

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by john bickar on Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:11 am

Rob Kovach wrote:Pumping the gun isn't a big deal.

A $5000 air pistol with an electronic trigger isn't going to help your .45 scores as much as a Daisy 747 will.

Respectfully disagree.

I didn't move from Master to High Master in bullseye until I started shooting a ton of air pistol, and moved from 540s to 580s. You're not going to shoot 580s with a 747.

You can get a good PCP air pistol for $800-1200. That will show you a lot more than a 747 will. The 747 is good for knocking over empty beer cans.

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by Rob Kovach on Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:16 am

The 747 is good for knocking over empty beer cans.
It's better than that.  If I can shoot a 552 with one in MY hands, they are plenty good enough.

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by C.Perkins on Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:23 am

beeser wrote:After reading dronning's post in the other thread (Equipment section) I did a little more research on the Steyr LP5/LP50 and it seemed like a good fit, to wit:

The grip can be configured like the 1911.
It has about the same sight radius as a 1911.
There are different triggers for it, one that has a heavier pull similar to a 1911.
According Pilkguns "it's a favorite among NRA Bullseye shooter for home training".
It comes with a mount for a red dot.

The only drawback that I've been able to uncover is the $2100 price tag but as others have mentioned, used ones come up for sale occasionally for much less.

Come on guys, really ?
We all have powder guns to shoot.
Do you honestly want a pellet gun to be a mirror image of it ?
The thread is about the basic fundamentals; period.
We all need to focus on one perfectly executed shot.
Does not matter if it is 5 or 15 shots in 10 seconds.
Each one is of itself.
A light trigger on an air or free pistol will help you shoot your 3.5# .45 trigger cause it is about control and movement.
Dont think a 1/4 oz trigger pull can not move your sight or pistol off target, then you have not shot free or air pistol.

Now if you are just wanting to shoot pellets as you do bullseye then go for it.

I do not want to come across as being rash(too late Smile)

I just want to get across to the new shooters of what to do and not to do from my own experiences.
For whatever that is worth.

Clarence

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by robert84010 on Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:00 am

john bickar wrote:
Rob Kovach wrote:Pumping the gun isn't a big deal.

A $5000 air pistol with an electronic trigger isn't going to help your .45 scores as much as a Daisy 747 will.

Respectfully disagree.

I didn't move from Master to High Master in bullseye until I started shooting a ton of air pistol, and moved from 540s to 580s. You're not going to shoot 580s with a 747.

You can get a good PCP air pistol for $800-1200. That will show you a lot more than a 747 will. The 747 is good for knocking over empty beer cans.
John,
I would still put money on you with a 747 vs. the OP using a LP10, whether shooting cans or for score on paper. The main reason behind my recommendation is the OP recently posted about not being able to make consistent shot calls with a 22, and his posting about air pistol was not about shooting AP matches. I guess part of my appreciation for the 747 was because it was $75 from Gil Hebard when I bought mine. Really I am just a fan of air pistol/rifle practice and I recommend it but I just don't want to be the guy that recommends a $1k pistol to a new shooter, because the level of training is not linear to the price. If someone can afford that then by all means get one and PRACTICE.

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by beeser on Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:11 am

dronning wrote:
Doesn't come with a mount for a red dot, what looks like a red dot mount in the pic are actually air ports.  Red dot rib is +$140, the  1911 grip is +$105.  New it would be $2345.

I got one used with both the 200-600gram & the 4lb triggers ($245 option when you get both), red dot rib and grip for $1600 and I thought it was a steal, I looked quite a while.

I've seen only a very few LP5/50 for less than $1200.  If you wanted it set up with a 1911 grip and red dot you would add $245 and a 4lb trigger another $245.

I've shot the 747, it's a vey nice AP for the money, it will get the job done!

- Dave

Dave,
Thanks for the correction.

Fortunately the number of air pistols to choose from is limited so it won't take a lot to decide which one to get.  I'm convinced that for the purpose of practice/training at home for Bullseye, whether it's a 1911, centerfire or .22lr, the Daisy 747 will get the job done.  I recall earlier on when you guys similarly recommended getting a Range Officer instead of much more expensive custom 1911.  That advice has proved to be spot on.  The only downside that I can see as mentioned before is having to cycle the pump for every shot.  I hope it won't discourage me from using the gun.  I plan to check out a few more things and will soon decide what to get.  I'm already laying out an area in the barn and assembling ideas for a target and pellet trap.

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:36 am

Unless you end up with a repeater you're going to have a break in the cycle any way you slice it.
You just have to use that break as an opportunity to reinforce your shot process start to finish.

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Re: Air pistol use improve 1911 performance?

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