75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

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75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by 285wannab on 4/14/2015, 1:40 pm

So I have something that you might find interesting. And I might of brought it up before but here goes. During a match I stand 75deg. from the shooting line.  My eye, sight and target lines up nicely.  The thing is when I'm messing around and try standing at a 45deg. from the shooting line I feel much more solid.  My slow fire scores are better but timed and rapid are not as good.  And thats because I am fighting to keep things lined up.  One thing about the 45deg. stance is my face is straight forward where with the 75deg. my face is offset. With the 75deg. stance  my wrist is pretty straight and with the 45deg. stance my wrist has to be bent outward.
I would like to change over to the 45deg. stance but.....would it make sense????
Looking for ideas and opinions

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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by DavidR on 4/14/2015, 2:12 pm

What makes sense is to shoot whatever stance gives the best result, if 45 does better for slow fire and 75 is better for timed and rapid just change up and do both
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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by LenV on 4/14/2015, 2:27 pm

In a safe place pick up an unloaded pistol and go into your stance. Now, close your eyes, head forward and semi relax. Start moving your shooting arm in a circular motion. Without opening your eyes bring the circle smaller and smaller. When the arm is at it's most comfortable position and you have stopped moving then open your eyes and turn your head to look thru the sights. You will find out 2 things doing this exercise. 1. you will find your natural shooting position and 2. You will find out if you need to change your grip.
  The goal is to be able to do this until at the point when you turn to look thru the sights your pistol and sights are lined up with the target. You accomplish this by changing the position of your feet in a circular pattern to correct for windage and by opening or closing your stance for elevation. If everything is lined up except the sights then you might consider changing your grip until the sights are in line.
  The reason I go thru all of this is to find my natural shooting position without forcing anything. This allows me to go on cruise control for sustained fire without also having to recover to a forced position.

Len  (That's my .02)
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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by davekp on 4/15/2015, 6:34 am

Can you explain the "opening or closing your stance for elevation"?

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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by Virgil Kane on 4/15/2015, 7:00 am

davekp wrote:Can you explain the "opening or closing your stance for elevation"?
Moving your feet either closer together or farther apart that shoulder width.


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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by BE Mike on 4/15/2015, 7:51 am

2/3rds of the match is the short line. If your stance is preventing good scores there...
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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by Jack H on 4/15/2015, 10:26 am

OldMaster65 wrote:In a safe place pick up an unloaded pistol and go into your stance. Now, close your eyes, head forward and semi relax. Start moving your shooting arm in a circular motion. Without opening your eyes bring the circle smaller and smaller. When the arm is at it's most comfortable position and you have stopped moving then open your eyes and turn your head to look thru the sights. You will find out 2 things doing this exercise. 1. you will find your natural shooting position and 2. You will find out if you need to change your grip.
  The goal is to be able to do this until at the point when you turn to look thru the sights your pistol and sights are lined up with the target. You accomplish this by changing the position of your feet in a circular pattern to correct for windage and by opening or closing your stance for elevation. If everything is lined up except the sights then you might consider changing your grip until the sights are in line.
  The reason I go thru all of this is to find my natural shooting position without forcing anything. This allows me to go on cruise control for sustained fire without also having to recover to a forced position.

Len  (That's my .02)
How do you change your grip? (1911 here)  Trigger fingers are a certain length, hands a certain size.  Where can change come from?
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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/15/2015, 10:59 am

How do you change grip? A smidgeon at a time. I think many shooters don't realize how much they really can change their grip on the 1911. Sad truth is too many shooters don't hardly dry fire or really know how to effectively dry fire. Earlier this year I was dry firing about 8-10 hours a week. I was striving for absolutely perfect 'zero' movement during the shot break. I found that by slight/minute changes I could get the results I was looking for. I'm talking beyond the basic grip! So grip is comprised of finger and thumb pressure as well as heel. It can all be changed. I have 3 triggers for my pistol; short, medium, and long. I can experiment with grip rotaion and trigger finger placement at my whim. But ultimately the basic grip can be varied and changed minutely while getting drastically different results. So my opinion is that hand size and finger length do not govern the grip.
Jon
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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/15/2015, 12:01 pm

Grip can change a whole lot.  Ask Brian Zins and anyone who has attended his clinic.  You can rotate that gun in your hand and end up with something completely different.
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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by 285wannab on 4/15/2015, 4:30 pm

David that was suggested by a friend and better shooter than me,  change stances for slow then timed and rapid.  But I would prefer to remain constant.
The only thing I shoot is indoors at 50' with a 22.
I have a good npa, everything lines up good.  And I have a good grip, my gun does not shift around.
I guess a better question would be does it make sense or has anyone changed from one stance with a good npa to a different stance that felt more solid?  I would think that over time a new stance would start to have it's own new npa.  I think a big draw back for me would be that I would have to hold my wrist in a different position.  It wouldn't matter for slow fire but for timed and rapid it would.
Jon knows what he is talking about with length of pull on the trigger.  I have a Ruger so I build my trigger up a little.  This is one reason Pardinis and GSP are so nice. Adjustablity.
ps anyone have a marvel trigger for a Ruger they want to sell?

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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/15/2015, 4:46 pm

I've never heard of a Marvel Ruger trigger? Does someone have a picture? The best one I'm aware of is the Clark steel trigger.
Jon
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Marvel Ruger Trigger

Post by BrianD on 4/15/2015, 8:05 pm

I have one, actually was installed by Bob Marvel.  Probably around 20 years ago.  Very good trigger.

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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/15/2015, 8:15 pm

Do you have a picture you can share?
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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by gitkrunk on 4/16/2015, 2:07 pm

DavidR wrote:What makes sense is to shoot whatever stance gives the best result, if 45 does better for slow fire and 75 is better for timed and rapid just change up and do both

I agree with David..  i tend to lean in ever so slightly for my timed and rapid which helps me.
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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by DavidR on 4/16/2015, 2:42 pm

I have a tricked out ruger mkll I built back in 2002. the very best part in it that made the most improvement in the trigger was a clark hammer bushing, I don't think they even make it anymore but it removed all the slop and made a very nice trigger. I did a quick search and found this which is the same thing.
http://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/trigger-group-parts/hammer-parts/hammer-bushings/ruger-reg-mark-ii-hammer-bushing-prod31838.aspx
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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by 285wannab on 4/16/2015, 5:54 pm

Thanks David for posting brownells.  I went to the Clark website are they still sell the bushing.  Do you still shoot the Ruger in matches?  I saw a marvel trigger for sale about 4,5 months ago for $35.00 and I waited,wondering if I really needed it.  After it was sold then I decided I really needed it. Rolling Eyes  They are out there.
So let me ask everyone what position is your wrist in.  1. Your wrist is in a position like your throwing a punch towards the target and your going to hit with your knuckles or 2. Your wrist is in the position like you are going to grab someone by the throat.
I use number 1. but am going to try and switch to number 2. with a stance change.
ps I have high hopes for a new to me Ruger.....

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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/16/2015, 5:58 pm

Hammer bushing only makes for more consistent hammer sear engagement. It shouldn't hardly affect trigger pull. Engagement surfaces are still the same.
Jon
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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by james r chapman on 4/16/2015, 6:09 pm

The hammer bushings took out the slop, that's what made the trigger pull consistent. Unfortunately when used in the mklll it disables a safety device as I recall
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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by gitkrunk on 4/16/2015, 6:26 pm

james r chapman wrote:The hammer bushings took out the slop, that's what made the trigger pull consistent. Unfortunately when used in the mklll it disables a safety device as I recall

which makes it illegal for NRA use correct?
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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by DavidR on 4/17/2015, 9:07 am

I used my ruger Mkll for indoor league, it is now a back up gun to my 208S and AW93, not sure how the bushing could effect a safety but I never looked inside a mklll.
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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/17/2015, 9:11 am

When installing the MKII type hammer bushing the magazine safety is removed. The MKIII bushing has all the wonderful magazine safety crapola attached to it.
Jon
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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by DavidR on 4/17/2015, 10:01 am

just another reason to look for a ruger  MKll
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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by LenV on 4/17/2015, 10:06 am

285wannabe,
  I actually made my first post to your OP about an exercise that I have found helps me find the right stance for me. I want to add to that. You talk about 75deg and 45deg like they are the 2 options for you. That exercise may help you find out that something in the middle may work better. You might find 55, 65 etc will combine the best of both positions. Finding what works best for you (even if you decide on 2) is the important thing. About the grip. I hold the pistol in my non-shooting hand and go into the grip with my thumb and fingers forming a V that points straight up my arm. I guess that would be more like grabbing then throwing a punch. Actually it feels more like putting on a glove.

Len
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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by 285wannab on 4/18/2015, 9:26 am

Thanks Len.
I am going to work on the 45degish stance for awhile.  I think over time it will become second nature and I will feel more solid.  The proof will be an increase/decrease in my average.
I would be interested in how other shooters hold their wrist.

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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/18/2015, 9:50 am

I hold mine like a punch.  I used to hold it like I was going to grab someone by the throat, but plateaued.  I'm seeing better stability and recoil recovery with the punch style.
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Re: 75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

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