No "Division" at the Nationals

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No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by Motorcycle_dan on 4/18/2015, 7:50 pm

So I got online to sign up early for our National matches.  I kept filling in the blocks and waiting for it to ask me which Division I was competing in, Open, Metallic or Production.  Well it didn't ask.  Apparently they are not doing "Divisions" according the the Rules that the NRA wrote for use in competition. 

I can forgive them last year.  The National match program was written before the New rules were adopted.  This year however, Someone dropped the ball. 

Am I the only one who planned to see how my iron sight skills were on a national level?  Was anyone else planning to shoot in a division other than Open?

Must say I'm a little frustrated by this.  I'm stewing about it now hoping to find the right person within the NRA and get them to open it up for different divisions. 

I'm not far from asking that they follow their posted rules or refund my money.
Thoughts? comments?  Know who by name I need to rattle at NRA competitions to get a response?
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/18/2015, 8:02 pm

Contact
Dwilling@nrahq.org

Dan,
I gave you a warning that those rules were unworkable prior to your pursuit of the "production" class championship. I was told by people who would know that most matches held nationwide would be "open" class due to the difference in the administration of matches with 3 sub classes per classification.

Administering these matches add a significant workload and manpower burden that I don't see being addressable for years.

Sorry.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by dronning on 4/18/2015, 8:04 pm

I think they had good intentions, but there was too little interest and the feedback I heard was it was just too hard to manage.

Make sure you attend the NRA Competitor's Meeting and let them know how you feel.

- Dave
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by LenV on 4/19/2015, 9:39 am

Motorcycle Dan
  I mentioned last year on a post that they were not allowing any extra days or times for the new classes. Just like you, I would like to see how the rest of the Metallic shooters are doing. I suffered thru a 2700 yesterday with iron sights so I would be one match closer to getting a new card. Look on the bright side. The 2 of us (made up number) that have this new classification will be setting national records every other match next year when they say they are going to start recording them. Hmmmm. Bet that doesn't happen either. Smile

Len
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/19/2015, 10:32 am

I'll would love to be SS "National Champion" with iron sights.  I've been shooting well enough that I would be competitive--if only in my class.  I agree with Len, I just don't see NRA in a hurry to start recording those new records.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by CR10X on 4/19/2015, 3:15 pm

As far as I can read:

Division awards are not required for any NRA Approved or Registered Tournament, which probably includes the National Match Tournament since it is a sanctioned match; unless specified in the Official (Match) Program. As a matter of fact, a tournament can pretty much say what matches, guns, courses of fire and competitors are allowed; upon review the NRA will determine if the Program meets the requirements for Approved or Registered tournament. 
  
If it is a Registered tournament, the classification use is required by the rules; there is no mention of Division requirements.  Match directors may send in the scores by Division, but it looks like Approved matches do not even have to have more than one award class (the rules do not appear to include any Division award requirements unless specified in the match Program).  

National Records can only be set at Registered matches.

If anyone wants to see how open sight skills match up, just go to the CMP competition tracker and check out the high scores.  If you want to check out for NRA matches, just look at the trophy scores before about 1980 or 1990.  Have fun!

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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by DavidR on 4/20/2015, 10:53 am

What ever happened to going to perry to shoot in your standard bullseye class? Why a need to try and compete in any obscure class they might come up with unless you have mastered basic bullseye. I watched and followed Dan as he progresed and really thought he had a chance at being a national champion until he went off in 50 directions on obscure shooting ventures. Dan come back to the basics my friend I want to see how far you can go! As to why none of these new classes at perry it may be because the rumor is this is perrys last year and the nationals will be moved to Columbus ohio next season. just a rumor, but from a very high up in the competition.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by DeweyHales on 4/20/2015, 7:28 pm

Not everyone chooses to follow the herd. 

It's a shame that the NRA seems to be letting these divisions flounder. 

I've shot metallic since it launched. The best thing it has done for me is to allow me to readvance through the classes. It's less fun (at least to me) to shoot in a class that is beyond your skill level.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/20/2015, 7:39 pm

I've been doing the same as Dewey--but only as a measure to practice for my distinguished badge.  I'm still very competitive in my class--I won the SS class at the Wisconsin State Indoor Championship with iron sights over competitors with red-dots.  I found it rewarding.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by Colt711 on 4/21/2015, 4:18 pm

DavidR wrote:
 As to why none of these new classes at perry it may be because the rumor is this is perrys last year and the nationals will be moved to Columbus ohio next season. just a rumor, but from a very high up in the competition.
Which Columbus range do they intend to use? The plans for Perry are made 2 or more yrs in advance.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by DavidR on 4/21/2015, 4:49 pm

just a rumor and it wasn't said which range but that it was new and had 300 firing points.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/21/2015, 8:24 pm

There is a HUGE trap shooting complex just north of Columbus, but it's not set up for any pistol competitions yet as there are homes less than a mile downrange to the north of those firing points, and no backstop.  They haven't built the turning target system either.

I would say those things would need to be completed prior to any discussions about moving the national matches there.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by Wobbley on 4/21/2015, 8:28 pm

Smallbore was sent to Vandalia for a few years so they can accommodate the F class rifle worlds.  But relocating pistol wasn't in the works, I didn't think.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by james r chapman on 4/21/2015, 8:29 pm

are you thinking of the Cardinal Center in Marengo? And, I thought smallbore went to Bristol, Indiana?
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/21/2015, 8:33 pm

I'm not aware that relocating pistol was "in the works" by anyone--except maybe the outfit running the range that's getting built.

Perhaps they figure if they build a nice, new, facility that can handle the national match, and nobody invests in repairing the target system at Camp Perry, that they will get the national pistol matches by default.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/21/2015, 8:34 pm

Cardinal Center in Marengo is the rumor I heard.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by james r chapman on 4/21/2015, 9:06 pm

Cardinal Center is a privately owned property that's been very nicely developed as a Trap shooting facility and year round campground. They do have a deep pockets owner so anythings possible. I understand they've installed a Bunker trap field also, so anythings possible.

Now if we could only get turning targets and backstops on our Michigan Trap Association home grounds in Mason, Michigan, we'd be all set... (fat chance)
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by sixftunda on 4/21/2015, 10:04 pm

Cardinal Center is a beautiful facility run by people who know how to run big matches.  Top notch vendors row.  Golf cart rental.  I could go on and on.  I would love to shoot Nationals there.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by DavidR on 4/22/2015, 10:10 am

I also heard that a private company offered to repair the systems at perry and were told no because of the rumored move next year.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by Colt711 on 4/22/2015, 11:54 pm

sixftunda wrote:Cardinal Center is a beautiful facility run by people who know how to run big matches.  Top notch vendors row.  Golf cart rental.  I could go on and on.  I would love to shoot Nationals there.


Looks like a nice venue, easy to get to, except for the west of the rockies shooters, but the people mentioned above must be willing to let the NRA call the "shots" while they stay in the background.

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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by dennisl.willing on 6/20/2015, 7:10 am

In total, there are 29 classified competitors nationwide in Production and Metallic combined.  Given that about 2% of classified competitors attend the national championships, that means that about 1 competitor using those divisions would attend.  It was NOT an oversight not to include those divisions, it was a conscious decision not to do so and to wait to see if the divisions are popular enough to support their inclusion at the championships.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by DavidR on 6/20/2015, 9:21 am

Some easy to understand info on what exactly these classes are would build interest imo
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by SteveT on 6/20/2015, 10:07 am

dennisl.willing wrote:In total, there are 29 classified competitors nationwide in Production and Metallic combined.  Given that about 2% of classified competitors attend the national championships, that means that about 1 competitor using those divisions would attend.  It was NOT an oversight not to include those divisions, it was a conscious decision not to do so and to wait to see if the divisions are popular enough to support their inclusion at the championships.

I don't see it being very popular until it is a class at Camp Perry. I know I'm not going to put in the effort just to shoot by myself at a few local matches. If there are not enough competitors it could be offered as an "honorary" award. That way the infrastructure is there, the score cards include the necessary options, the stat office computers can track it. All the wrinkles are worked out and support can grow.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by LenV on 6/20/2015, 10:58 am

There will be 30 of us when I get my card. Looking forward to setting new National records every match. Smile The 3 year wait period is almost up. Another reason for interest in those divisions.

Len
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by Wobbley on 6/20/2015, 11:47 am

The HP rifle has many divisions, Service, Reserve, Civilian, Match Rifle. Service Rifle, etc.  It isn't rocket science to have divisions.  The problem here seems to be participation.  You need to have a minimum of participation to make it meaningful.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

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