No "Division" at the Nationals

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No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by Motorcycle_dan on 4/18/2015, 7:50 pm

First topic message reminder :

So I got online to sign up early for our National matches.  I kept filling in the blocks and waiting for it to ask me which Division I was competing in, Open, Metallic or Production.  Well it didn't ask.  Apparently they are not doing "Divisions" according the the Rules that the NRA wrote for use in competition. 

I can forgive them last year.  The National match program was written before the New rules were adopted.  This year however, Someone dropped the ball. 

Am I the only one who planned to see how my iron sight skills were on a national level?  Was anyone else planning to shoot in a division other than Open?

Must say I'm a little frustrated by this.  I'm stewing about it now hoping to find the right person within the NRA and get them to open it up for different divisions. 

I'm not far from asking that they follow their posted rules or refund my money.
Thoughts? comments?  Know who by name I need to rattle at NRA competitions to get a response?
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by SteveT on 6/20/2015, 12:20 pm

It's a chicken and egg situation. The NRA is waiting for more people to participate and people are waiting to see if it's for real. Should I spend the time working up a load and training with my Sig if there won't be any competition? 

It seems like the cost of offering it is fairly small, so why not include it in the program?
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by Rob Kovach on 6/20/2015, 2:39 pm

I've been shooting metallic with my CF and .45 for years.

I'm not classified in the metallic classification because the rules make it extremely time consuming and difficult for match directors to administer.

If NRA would do SOMETHING to make it easier for match directors to administer matches to include the new classifications we MIGHT start seeing participation.

It's impossible for the shooters to drive participation in this. The match directors are in a bad spot because NRA didn't write the rules in a way that would make it easy enough.

I advised NRA to develop web software for match directors to enter scores with classes for each shooter directly into NRA's system. That way you would get IMMEDIATE reporting of scores and classification, less work for the match directors AND less work for the NRA competition staff. PLUS the added benefit of realtime match reporting to provide a way for spectators to see how a shooter is doing.

I've been assured by Dennis Willing that a complete NRA website overhaul is in the works, and he says that there are improvements in the way match directors will do their work. Hopefully it turns out.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by Motorcycle_dan on 6/20/2015, 6:08 pm

The problem was in the rules and making it so match directors had guidance on how to incorporate divisions into their regular monthly matches.  New divisions should have been better advertised and someone who was willing to help match directors.  DavidR commented that I was wandering off in many directions.  True - I shot a 2620 something match and took second to a previous national champion.  It did nothing for me.  I was floundering.  Didn't appreciate the win or the lost matches.  I was happier shooting something "new" and winning did not matter.  It was very frustrating for me when I shot a 2578 (which would have been 2nd overall) but since I was ranked with the other metallic sight shooters rather in with the rest of the open division shooters.  So I was 1 of 1 and not mentioned in the match scores other than I did a fine job with iron sights.  In my opinion the mixing of divisions should be the same as when mixing classifications.  Only two marksmen, they are mixed into the SS class.  Still not enough ?  The MK and SS are mixed into the EX class, until there are 5 competitors.  Each Division carry a separate classification and should be mixed in with like classified higher divisions until the minimum number of participants for award is achieved.  This was not published along with the rules and no one at the NRA was giving proper direction to those people running matches.  I still have no idea what constitutes a production division rim fire pistol other than a revolver.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by Motorcycle_dan on 6/20/2015, 6:11 pm

The problem was in the rules and making it so match directors had guidance on how to incorporate divisions into their regular monthly matches.  New divisions should have been better advertised and someone who was willing to help match directors.  DavidR commented that I was wandering off in many directions.  True - I shot a 2620 something match and took second to a previous national champion.  It did nothing for me.  I was floundering.  Didn't appreciate the win or the lost matches.  I was happier shooting something "new" and winning did not matter.  It was very frustrating for me when I shot a 2578 (which would have been 2nd overall) but since I was ranked with the other metallic sight shooters rather in with the rest of the open division shooters.  So I was 1 of 1 and not mentioned in the match scores other than I did a fine job with iron sights.  In my opinion the mixing of divisions should be the same as when mixing classifications.  Only two marksmen, they are mixed into the SS class.  Still not enough ?  The MK and SS are mixed into the EX class, until there are 5 competitors.  Each Division carry a separate classification and should be mixed in with like classified higher divisions until the minimum number of participants for award is achieved.  This was not published along with the rules and no one at the NRA was giving proper direction to those people running matches.  I still have no idea what constitutes a production division rim fire pistol other than a revolver.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by CR10X on 6/20/2015, 8:22 pm

I do understand the concerns, but handling divisions for match directors / stat people is a real pain in the butt as the scoring programs and rules / guidelines for entering scores for classification creates a whole list of issues we will have to figure out how to deal with if the divisions continue.  (And I really don't have that many people competing outside of open anyway.) 

Part of your post above  I don't understand.  The rules now already say that for the match the competitors division will be the highest division competed in for that match. Unless of course the match program specified separate awards by division as well as classification, which does not seem to be the case.  Yes, you could and I do combine the classifications and divisions for awards, it generally results in everyone competing under open anyway for awards.  In general, awards are as per whatever is specified in the match bulletin. So while you may not have been eligible for award under a specific "division" you should have been combined with others of similar classification for the match awards. 

Another problem is for returning scores by division to the NRA.  If a competition competes in one division and classification across the whole match, that is no problem.  However, lots of competitors want to shoot open in one aggregate, metallic in another and sometimes even production in another.  

To accommodate any other type of arrangement, it would mean there could be 2 or 3 division competitor and I would have to enter that competitor 2 or 3 times (with 2 or 3 associated fees based on what we have now. And by the way, the programs we generally use (John Dreyer's scoring programs), do not provide for divisions anyway and the only way to "fake it" is to put in the same competitor 1, 2, or 3 times and that screws up the number of competitors by class for the allocation of awards used by the program. (The program uses the number of competitors by classification.)

Just please remember that the scores for classification are sent in and calculated by "tournament", not match in accordance with the NRA rules for now.  

And the one thing I thought of for "production" .22 is a .22 conversion for a Beretta 92.  It meets the double action criteria.

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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by LenV on 6/20/2015, 9:33 pm

"However, lots of competitors want to shoot open in one aggregate, metallic in another and sometimes even production in another."

Can they do that? I didn't know that was legal. I thought they had to be reported in the highest class they shot in. I have been using this new classification to get in some decent training and not feel to bad about my scores. I shoot my EIC .22 in the international position. The CF with my DSR gun and the .45 with the hardball. My scores suffer for it but someday I will get a new card out of it. And its fun.

Len
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by Rob Kovach on 6/20/2015, 10:43 pm

Old Master65 wrote:"However, lots of competitors want to shoot open in one aggregate, metallic in another and sometimes even production in another."

Can they do that? I didn't know that was legal. I thought they had to be reported in the highest class they shot in.

When a competitor enters a "tournament" (like a 2700) the competitor can enter each "match" with a different gun and different classification based on the new rules.  They will have an "aggregate" that is classified in the highest class that they entered, but there is no guidance in the rules that addresses how to classify a competitor that competed in up to 3 different classifications in the matches that make up the "tournament".

When the rule change was announced I was critical of the NRA for leaving the rules so vague, and they told me that it is the match directors prerogative to figure this out.  I still don't know any match directors who have enough free time to figure all that stuff out.

In my real job, I am constantly analyzing law changes for the state of Wisconsin.  I have to review proposals and try to figure out if the proposals are practical enough to be good policy.  It's a rare instance when I find a policy that I can't find a solution for. This rule isn't very practical--for both the match directors and the NRA.

The solution that I came up with was to create "special awards" instead of the "new classification" system.  That way if the shooter is an Expert, he's still an Expert whether he's shooting irons, or one of the production class.  Sure it's more difficult, but seriously, an Expert class shooter isn't going to need much practice to be shooting scores pretty close to the maximum that the gun is capable of.

When you really think about what the purpose of the rule change was, it wasn't to allow Masters and Experts to work their way back through Marksman and Sharpshooter to dominate and win all of the awards.  The purpose was to entice new shooters to show up for matches with equipment that isn't really ideal for bullseye shooting.

By taking the "classification" variable out of the equation it really simplifies administration of the "special awards" for Iron Sights and Production class guns.

The match director would know who the "non-open-class" shooters were and they would simply give out the awards for "High expert--Iron sights".  "High Sharpshooter--Iron Sights"  "High Marksman--Iron Sights" and the same with the production class guns.

Wouldn't it be nice if when we register our matches, if NRA would send out medals that are pre-engraved with those "special awards".  They created the new "classes"--they should support them.


Last edited by Rob Kovach on 6/21/2015, 8:42 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : I wrote a paragraph that didn't make any sense and had to fix it.)
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by Jack H on 6/20/2015, 11:25 pm

The competitors aggregate will be determined by the highest
division they compete in, in the order listed below: Open, Metallic,
Production Division(s), Open being the highest, and Production
Division being the lowest. Competitor’s classifi cation in the highest
Divison will be used in competition.


That is in the first paragraph of rule 3
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by CR10X on 6/21/2015, 7:01 am

There is nothing to figure out.
The rules say you will be reported for the tournament based on the highest division you competed in for the tournament. A rule change or separate entry would be required. But the rules also have some language about multiple entry and aliases that I need to review as well.

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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by Wobbley on 6/21/2015, 8:51 am

It isn't that hard for the stat people if they use blocks of competitor numbere .  said 1XXX for open 2XXX for production etc.  Even a small match can have divisions.   If they're using a spreadsheet to score it's just a simple sort operation to find the high score.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

Post by Rob Kovach on 6/21/2015, 8:29 pm

It's hard for us to have all the scores ENTERED before the competitors have gone home. I certainly don't have the ability nor time to redesign the spreadsheets to accept 15 classifications instead of 5.

That sounds like an excellent job for the NRA to tackle--an updated spreadsheet or match administration web app would be something the entire sport could use.
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Re: No "Division" at the Nationals

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