AW-93 Group

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AW-93 Group

Post by Froneck on Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:17 pm

I have the AW-93. I have never been able to get a good group at any distance. Naturally the shorter the distance the better the group but so is my requirement. All my other .22s would shoot one hole at 50 feet, dime size at 25 yards and less than a Quarter (25 cents) at 50 yards. This gun has vertical stringing of about 2" at 50 yards and I can't figure out why. My groups were all fired from sand bag rest using various sights. I don't have Ransome rest grips for it and may have to buy a set. I have completely built a rear housing from Titanium, much better than the Aluminum the gun came with and a tighter fit but it didn't help. Purchased an Insight MRDS that has no Parallax at 50 yards but that didn't help either. Nor is the gun moving in the grips, I also made a 1911 grip adapter for it, it will not move! Same vertical stringing! Did manage to correct a trigger adjustment problem.
 Any Ideas??

 Frank


Last edited by Froneck on Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:06 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by Guest on Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:14 pm

Sorry, no.  I have had an AW-93 for a year now and love it.  Switched to a Rink grip and Brenzovich scope mount.


Chip

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by r_zerr on Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:50 pm

Frank,

Try chronographing it. If the velocities are not consistent, then it is likely an ignition issue.  If they are consistent, then it is somewhere else, likely the barrel....loose, crown, or general barrel/chamber quality. 

-Ron

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by Froneck on Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:59 am

I had Brenzovich's scope mounts, both of them! Have Rink Grips fitted to my hand at Perry. Scope mounts did not help! Rink Grips feel good but I want to try 1911 style. I shot in a .22 pistol 2700, scored 2531 with  a few double alibis and a few doubles! Might be good in Marksman class but is not good in Master. I have since fixed the doubling and double alibi problem!
 Less that 1,000 rounds fired, gun is like new, test target show 10 shots fired at 25 meters, didn't have a dime on me but a penny easily covered the group! Barrel is tight in the frame, Slide closes good after each shot ( I checked) Firing pin hit on the brass, very good! I did re-crown using a tool I made (works great on my 208s and others) If it were the chamber I'm thinking it could not have shot that test target. Used different .22 ammo from 10X and other high end stuff to CCI Standard, all shot about the same group!
 I'm thinking it might be the Insight MRDS, good sight ($500+) but it's Doctor mount, maybe that's not good!

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by BE Mike on Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:02 am

2" groups will keep you well within the 10 ring and mostly X ring at 50 yards. How do you shoot it off-hand? IMHO, you are worrying too much.

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by SteveT on Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:32 pm

Are you resting on the recoil weight? It's possible the sandbag is interfering with something in the recoil system. Try resting on the trigger guard. I've only tested mine a Ransom Rest and I see no vertical stringing with any ammo.

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by DavidR on Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:35 pm

If its not the crown then id change the sight, it might say no parallax but it may not be true at 50 yards. try a i'' ultra dot or a aimpoint or get it in a ransom where the sight is not needed.

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by Froneck on Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:21 pm

I have the Holosun red dot on the way! Joe Chambers said it was very good and is testing it on a .45 to see if it will last but so far it has. 2moa dot too!
If it don't help I'm making a rib type mount, use the sight hole to attach it in front and put an Ultradot on. I added a photo of the homemade Baikal, Adam shot it for 10 years and it still shoots great! It has the wide base spacing not like the short base on the AW!

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by DavidR on Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:33 pm

nice gun! let us know how the new dot does

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AW 93 Accuracy data

Post by Dipnet on Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:48 am

I copied these data from the Glock forum and converted to English units. Distance wasn't stated but I believe it to be 25 meters. I don't know how many groups were averaged or other details. However, based on my experience in shooting an old 7.375-inch model 41 and my Pardini SP from a home made rest, these group sizes seem large. But 22 ammo can vary by lot and most pistols shoot some ammo better than others (as shown by these data).

I have heard nothing but good things about the AW 93 (except the trigger is difficult to adjust correctly). I would try carefully firing rounds using iron sights at 25 yards to give you an idea of what the accuracy potential is. From there, I would look at the sight mount. Check out sights sold under the Primary Arms name; they look very interesting. Good luck, dipnet

22 Long Rifle
Benelli MP 90 S
FWB AW 93 Light
Morini CM  Aluminum
      Pardini SP    Walther GSP
 Group, in.Vel. f/sGroup, in.Vel. f/sGroup, in.
Vel. f/s
Group, in.Vel. f/sGroup, in.Vel. f/s
RWS R501.02915.40.83990.81.26954.70.79905.50.98872.7
RWS Target Pistol1.14928.50.75990.81.18951.40.87921.91.34885.8
RWS Pistol Match1.46941.60.711013.81.57958.00.67925.21.65912.1
RWS C 251.02889.10.79967.81.46905.51.02882.52.05856.3
RWS SSP 2501.42856.30.91918.60.94866.11.06856.31.77823.5
RWS Club 221.34918.60.87990.81.34938.30.94895.71.38862.9
Eley Pistol Standard0.94935.00.83984.30.71928.50.91895.71.46882.5
Eley Pistol Xtra1.10905.50.79990.81.22944.91.02912.11.02892.4
Eley Pistol Match1.02977.70.79948.21.38882.50.87876.01.02869.4
Eley Match Semi-auto0.87944.91.101030.20.98990.80.63967.80.83951.4
Eley Tenex Semi-auto1.10935.01.02997.41.26951.40.83935.01.18918.6
Lapua Midas M1.10925.20.71981.01.02921.90.83889.11.26892.4
Lapua Pistol King1.26974.40.94961.30.75915.40.87895.71.06869.4
Lapua OSP 251.30853.00.871013.81.57948.20.71928.51.34951.4
SK Pistol Match0.94866.11.021040.01.22971.10.75964.61.10918.6
SK Pistol Match Special1.22876.00.671023.60.98977.70.75954.71.38892.4
Fkiocchi SM Rapid Fire 2801.221013.81.26938.31.34872.71.18869.42.24876.0
Fkiocchi SM Rapid Fire 2800.98866.11.14931.81.30879.30.83869.41.42921.9
Fiocchi Maxac Rapid Fire1.26868.41.06925.21.38862.90.83853.01.85938.3
Fiocchi SM Rapid Fire 3200.911013.81.381053.11.261000.70.75971.11.06938.3
Mean1.13920.20.92984.61.21931.10.85908.51.37
896.3

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by Jon Eulette on Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:00 am

These groups are huge if shot at 25 yards!
Jon

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by Froneck on Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:12 pm

I have found the problem with the trigger. The second sear is not held in place well, pivot pin is in the frame on one side only. I made a bronze part to hold it yet not did anything to change the frame. After making the cut-out for to see transfer bar/ second sear engagement and assembling the gun I noticed the Hammer sear is supported on one side too. You can see it just above the second sear right of the engagement with the
transfer bar. Works good now but that heavy spring on the transfer bar to set the hammer sear is a bit of a problem if minimum gap is adjusted. the Black dot seen on the bronze bar is the second sear pivot.
 

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by Dipnet on Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:01 pm

Jon,
I agree, those groups are BIG if actually shot at 25m, but since I have no information about these data, I defaulted to the conservative 25m. dipnet

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by Jerry Keefer on Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:33 pm

I tested the Pardini to be sure it was doing the job, from a machine rest.. It is rather consistent with 10X grouping .625 to .750 at 50 yds. I am happy..

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by Froneck on Sun May 03, 2015 9:47 am

Up Date, I got the new scope, removed the insight but when doing so I noticed the loctite green did a good job of locking it to the base, I doubt the Doctor mounting system was the problem. I decided to inspect the Crown. I noticed a slight black spot so took a pointed needle file (one just happened to be handy) and genitally used the smooth side to inspect the spot, it easily came off as it was just sitting there. However as I was sliding the point of the file up the bore very genitally so and not to so-much as to even scratch the surface I felt it hit a slight resistance just before hitting that tiny flake sitting there. Getting a 1/8" soft brass rod and pointing it I noticed a burr from the crowning into the rifling recesses. I suspect it was done when the gun was made! I did use my crowing lap but the gun was shooting that way before I re-crowned it. I use 600 grit compound and rotate the tool with little pressure. The crown looked great but I didn't go deep enough. This time I Re-crowned it with 600 and finished with 1000 grit. My brass point does not catch on anything, it's very smooth and burr free now! Being late and dark outside I plan to remount the scope at give it a test today!
 However if that burr was done at the factory when the gun was made, how did they get a dime size (found a dime to use, it too easily covers the entire group) 10 shot at 25 meters test target?

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by Guest on Sun May 03, 2015 12:37 pm

All I can is I have had two AW-93s, both purchased brand new, and both were perfect.

Chip

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by Froneck on Mon May 04, 2015 10:52 am

Quite a few have told me that the trigger was difficult to adjust and I had trouble with mine. Mine had  Brenzovich's scope mount attached but came with the Iron sights and all the parts. It didn't shoot good and I could see the scope base move, Next year at Perry he replaced the scope mount with the Improved version, better but still had bigger groups that I would like. I'm told he has another up-dated scope mount. Seeing it was attached to a rather flimsy aluminum housing I made another complete with weaver scope mount from one piece of Titanium. I matched all the lower dimensions exactly as they were on the original aluminum one. My trigger problems got better until at Perry Brenzovich's smith said I had the clearance to close so I borrowed a needle file and opened it up a little forgetting that the Titanium housing pushed the hammer back farther and helped some of the trigger problems. Then the gun started doubling and had to be readjusted thought not where I liked it! Also he inspected the crown with his magnifying glasses and said it was perfect.
 I attributed the problem to parallax and found a red dot with virtually no Parallax at 50 yards. Windage got better but Vertical spread stayed the same.
 The slide stop will not lock back a few times and will often release when the magazine is put in. I do see that it extends slightly too much and hits the magazine probably causing it to release by itself. Another thing I will have to fix.
 Simply put this gun is less than perfect! I have a Hammerli 208s that has never given me problems, also a Walther GSP problem free.
 However I did re-crown the barrel and now have a 1" horizontal spread and 5/8" Vertical so my problem was the crown. While making a base adapter for the new scope (tested the gun with the old scope) I needed to drill what I think was better mounting screw pattern in the Doctor base so while at it I put two 4-48 setscrews very near the 2 dowel pins thinking that the two hex cap screws in the rear of the housing prevented the housing from moving right or left in the rear so adding 2 screws in the front will make my housing extremely stable. Will test it today! Would have mounted the new scope but couldn't find 2 hex flat head 10-32 screws.
 When I get time I plan to make another Titanium housing with my dimensions, I can see problems I want to eliminate plus the aluminum housing will eventually develop trigger problems if not more.

Frank

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by Froneck on Tue May 05, 2015 12:06 pm

Up-Date I got the other scope and made a mount for it! Tested it. It shot the same 5/8" Vertical X 1" horizontal as the Insight! But I can't adjust the group. My first shot was just to check zero, shot at 15' low 7 to the left about the same. Adjusted the sighs 1/4 turn Up and 1/4 turn right and shot 25 yards. About the same place, then 1/2 turn UP and 1/2 turn Right (I assume R is right) moved up but shot went left!, Turned screw marked "R" in opposite direction as the arrow and shot a 9 at 9 o'clock. Thinking that was good enough to fire a test group I went to 50 yards, turned "R" again in opposite direction as arrow Fired 5 shots in 6 ring at about 11 o'clock, turned a few clicks down and a few clicks again in the direction that was moving the sight right, shot 5 move. Shots came down but group moved left! Gave-up changed the sight back to Doctor mounted Insight and shot 5X. I think I got a bad scope!


Last edited by Froneck on Tue May 05, 2015 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by DavidR on Tue May 05, 2015 12:51 pm

Sounds like the holosun is not very good, not surprised, im not a fan of Chinese made electronics. I would use  1'' ultradot or a aimpoint . I was going to try a primary arms dot but they are made by the same company as holosun so that's a no go for sure.


Last edited by DavidR on Tue May 05, 2015 1:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by Rob Kovach on Tue May 05, 2015 1:01 pm

Was the faulty adjuster on a holosun?

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by Froneck on Tue May 05, 2015 2:00 pm

Well yes technically the Holosun. It's Precision Arms supposedly made by Holosun. They look identical. That's what I was told by Joe Chambers.
 When ever I mount a scope on a base I made it will shoot 10 ring at 25 yards with no adjustment, just mounted out of the box. Usually windage is almost perfect.
 Groups stayed the same as what I got from the Insight, thought the group is a little larger than I would like and may have been me shooting off a bench with no sandbags all the groups were about the same with either scope.
 Usually I can get just about any sight adjusted into the X ring with 4 or 5 shots and most to the time less I could not do it with the Precision Arms/Holosun scope. I tried to call Joe yesterday, will try again today.
 I would like to use an UltraDot  but they are long and will not fit on that short area the AW has. I may have to fit a long base and use the front sight hole to attach it in the front.
 This scope would have been great, has small 2moa dot, lots of intensity adjustment and no noticeable Parallax at 50 yards Plus the dot is nice and round! I really liked it until I couldn't adjust zero. Quite a few at the club have them and shoot good.

Frank

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by C.Perkins on Tue May 05, 2015 3:51 pm

Frank;

I do not know what the mounts look like and where they are located on an AW93 but would you be adverse to just install one ring on an Ultradot instead of two if it is doable ?

I have and had no problems with just using a single heavy ring on the front of the scope mounted to the pistols such as Leupold rings.
Only talking .22 of course.

I am not a high master, but have shot high master scores with that setup Smile

Clarence

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by DavidR on Tue May 05, 2015 4:12 pm

Frank, ive been using one weaver ring on my AW for three years with no issue on a new version of George B's  mount, solid as a rock. only downside is to get the slide off for a cleaning you have to remove the dot.

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by LenV on Tue May 05, 2015 4:46 pm

Frank,  I can loan you a Ultradot HD-micro if you want to give that a try without putting out the big bucks. I took the HD off a pistol I am going to be shooting EIC with so won't be going back on any time soon.

Len


HD when it was on the High Standard

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Re: AW-93 Group

Post by 38Super!! on Tue May 05, 2015 7:18 pm

Interesting thread.

Have 2 questions:

1,  What is the difference between the latest version of the Breznovich mount and the earlier version(s).

2.  Regarding the occasional lock back of the slide.  

Has anyone else experienced it?  I have.  I wonder if it is because of the type/brand of ammo.  Seems mine locks back better with Eley Target and Club and SK PistolMatch than with CCI SV or Federal 711B.  I haven't tested them to be sure.  I replaced the spring on the slide lock but that doesn't seem to have made any difference.

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Re: AW-93 Group

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