Cross fire discovered in SF

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Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Jack H on Mon May 04, 2015 12:42 pm

If during SF you spot a shot on your target from your neighbor, do you nudge the neighbor right then and say thanks for the ten.  ha ha
Then your neighbor says "just trying to help" 

Or do you wait and sort out the score s later.
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by sixftunda on Mon May 04, 2015 1:26 pm

I generally do not interrupt a shooter during slow fire because I can't be 100% sure of who crossfired.  I have been crossfired from two lanes away. 
I was crossfired on yesterday.  When I realized I had nine holes on target and three rounds left in my gun, I just stepped from the line and informed a line officer.  He walked down with us.  Fortunately the crossfires were SWC and I shoot JHP.  The holes were easily distinguishable.
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Rob Kovach on Mon May 04, 2015 1:27 pm

That conversation sounds common for that situation.  Sixftunda's point is quite valid, however.
I've heard stories where the neighbor returns the "favor" by giving him a six in return.  ...it's better that the zero he would have had instead.

If that neighbor gave you a poor shot then keep shooting your string and decide if you want the refire or not.  If you want to make sure you will have the best arguement per the rules, stick with your process and shoot all 10 of your shots on your target.  Just like in Sixftunda's case, it's possible that the scorer can figure out which 10 shots are yours and which ones are the other shooter's.
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Schaumannk on Mon May 04, 2015 2:35 pm

I've crossfired before, and been crossfired on.   In addition to James's points, sometimes you are simply scoping the wrong target.  

Best to sort it out during the scoring, unless you know your neighboring shooters really well, or it is a team match.

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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Jack H on Mon May 04, 2015 3:35 pm

Oh and be sure you are scoping YOUR target.  Don't ask me how I know this.
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by DavidR on Mon May 04, 2015 5:09 pm

Did that the other day at practice, scoped the target after 1st shot and nothing, thought dang is the zero that far off... second shot nothing.. then duh.. moved scope to see a x and a 9.
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by james r chapman on Mon May 04, 2015 5:58 pm

Must be nice, scoping Zin's target, and thinking all those x's are yours! 
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Guest on Mon May 04, 2015 10:12 pm

Brian said he writes the number of his target on the skin between his thumb and first finger.  Easy to confirm the right target.

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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by john bickar on Tue May 05, 2015 1:02 am

But when you discover a crossfire on your target early in the string (say there are 3 shots on your target and you've only fired two, and your neighbor admits to cross-firing), what do you do?

The last time I scrutinized the rule book on this issue, it was unclear - it only addressed "more than 10 hits" on a target.

Are you required to finish firing the string and then choose between low 10 and a refire not to exceed the high 10? Can you accept the lowest two of the first three and then fire the next 8 and get to keep those? Do you get the chance to refire two shots not to exceed the best two out of three?

What if there's not an NRA Referee at the match?
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Jon Eulette on Tue May 05, 2015 1:25 am

Those are great questions.  I've lost a match before because of cross fires on my target. I was shooting an Army championship match (not All-Army) and they squadded a unclassified shooter next to me (HM). In the 45 match he cross fired on all 3 of my SF targets. Visible misses killed me; sometimes more than one miss. One of the worst days shooting I've ever had.
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Schaumannk on Tue May 05, 2015 1:50 am

Jon Eulette wrote:Those are great questions.  I've lost a match before because of cross fires on my target. I was shooting an Army championship match (not All-Army) and they squadded a unclassified shooter next to me (HM). In the 45 match he cross fired on all 3 of my SF targets. Visible misses killed me; sometimes more than one miss. One of the worst days shooting I've ever had.
Jon
You should have been able to refire all three targets.   

I had a reserve army guy at a match last year, miss identify his target, and his first ten shots of slow fire were in mine, with my ten shots.  


The rule is, you can't do better on a refire than one point better than the top ten shots, but there is no floor.  

A friend who knows told me this rule was instituted because of a now retired high master shooter who used to put 11 shots in his own target if he had one he didn't like, so he could refire.

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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Jon Eulette on Tue May 05, 2015 3:20 am

I refired all 3 targets. Makes for a long match. This match was a .45 ball match with real ball :p)  (3600). 120 shots of ball has never been joy for me. On this day I fired 3 SF targets over. Original targets were all 95 or better. Mentally kicked my butt seeing those misses and 5 ' s show up after shooting such good ball scores. Jon
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Jack H on Tue May 05, 2015 5:08 am

john bickar wrote:But when you discover a crossfire on your target early in the string (say there are 3 shots on your target and you've only fired two, and your neighbor admits to cross-firing), what do you do?

The last time I scrutinized the rule book on this issue, it was unclear - it only addressed "more than 10 hits" on a target.

Are you required to finish firing the string and then choose between low 10 and a refire not to exceed the high 10? Can you accept the lowest two of the first three and then fire the next 8 and get to keep those? Do you get the chance to refire two shots not to exceed the best two out of three?

What if there's not an NRA Referee at the match?

Yes it is unclear, and maybe a bit unfair.  If you spot after your say 3rd shot and actually see a 4th hole appear just as the neighbor fires, I think it fair to tell your neighbor so the misses are fewer on his/her target in case she/he might repeat crossfiring.  What is unfair to you is now the bug is in your head revolving around rule  14.10.   I believe in order for 14.10 to work, you must complete your firing. 

But your neighbor might be Boris Badenov who will then shoot an extra on his target.  And you, Dudley Doright, are stuck with something out of your control.  Integrity plays a role here. 

In a less than all the marbles on the table match, if I saw the crossfired shot happen I would just "identify" it to the scorer and hope he is not too anal about the rules on it.  In a big time match, your word "I saw that shot appear while I was spotting" may not qualify as official.
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Froneck on Tue May 05, 2015 9:06 am

If I were shooting and seen holes in my target before I started to shoot I would stop shooting. I seen a few shooters stop especially if there are quite a few. They were allowed to re-fire. Quite often in matches I've went to a cross fire is often not your neighbors but your neighbor's neighbor.
 I would not tell the guy he is cross firing, you don't know it's him, you are now scoping other targets to try to find who crossed but you have no idea how many shots were fired. Eventually you will disturb the line. If the cross fire can be identified such as different caliber in centerfire match it can be ignored.
 As to when the rule was made get one point better on the re-fire, I don't remember it being 1 point better but in a re-fire that you get the score shot but can't exceed the high 10 on the cross fire target. Plus that rule was in effect before there was a High Master classification.

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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Schaumannk on Tue May 05, 2015 10:17 am

Froneck wrote:If I were shooting and seen holes in my target before I started to shoot I would stop shooting. I seen a few shooters stop especially if there are quite a few. They were allowed to re-fire. Quite often in matches I've went to a cross fire is often not your neighbors but your neighbor's neighbor.
 I would not tell the guy he is cross firing, you don't know it's him, you are now scoping other targets to try to find who crossed but you have no idea how many shots were fired. Eventually you will disturb the line. If the cross fire can be identified such as different caliber in centerfire match it can be ignored.
 As to when the rule was made get one point better on the re-fire, I don't remember it being 1 point better but in a re-fire that you get the score shot but can't exceed the high 10 on the cross fire target. Plus that rule was in effect before there was a High Master classification.
Absolutely true,   The shooter in question was just a master at this time, and his initials were D.Y.

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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by rich.tullo on Tue May 05, 2015 11:49 am

Lost a match a couple of weeks ago because a older guy was crossing all day. He was left handed and pushing. Cost me an 86 slow fire versus a 56. It was frustrating I decided not to shoot 45acp and went home. 

I had a master give me 2x's once and prefer crossfires from good shooters. 

Last Sunday I cross fired either a heavy jerk or bad bullet, I scored the guy on his 10 as I knew it was my shot.
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Froneck on Tue May 05, 2015 12:27 pm

Ahhh!! OK   D.Y was known to use light triggers too!

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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Jon Eulette on Tue May 05, 2015 12:39 pm

I'VE NEVER SEEN A TRIGGER WEIGHED AT ANY MATCH WITH THE EXCEPTION OF EIC MATCH. CLAIMING SOMEONE IS SHOOTING LIGHT TRIGGERS IS B.S. WITHOUT PROOF! HERESAY IS B.S.

I think we need to focus on facts and keep our focus positive!

Jon
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Schaumannk on Tue May 05, 2015 12:54 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:I'VE NEVER SEEN A TRIGGER WEIGHED AT ANY MATCH WITH THE EXCEPTION OF EIC MATCH. CLAIMING SOMEONE IS SHOOTING LIGHT TRIGGERS IS B.S. WITHOUT PROOF! HERESAY IS B.S.

I think we need to focus on facts and keep our focus positive!

Jon
Well they do weigh them at Perry randomly,  and after you shoot a national record., and there has been a lot of discussion of how certain 45's have been set up to pass a weight test, but actually pull quite a bit lighter in slow fire. 


We all know that some cheating goes on, and some people have been pretty blatant  about it.  

There are a few people,  even renowned Olymic shooters that are widely known as P's OS.


I don't personally think that talking about it, demeans the sport at all.  And not discussing it does not mean it didn't happen.  

My father was quite a competent high power competitor in the 1950's and he told stories about shooters who would shoot a tight group, and then because it was undetectable, put the last one into the berm.

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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Jerry Keefer on Tue May 05, 2015 1:00 pm

Once, loooong ago, when I was not yet at master level,.. I cross fired on Joe Pascarella's target.. He was much less than impressed...Shocked Shocked
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by james r chapman on Tue May 05, 2015 1:17 pm

I once cross fired a 9 on a PPC target. At least that's what HE said. I had to settle for 17 tens and x's.
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Jon Eulette on Tue May 05, 2015 1:18 pm

How the heck do you cross fire 1 shot in PPC???????????
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Jerry Keefer on Tue May 05, 2015 1:25 pm

james r chapman wrote:I once cross fired a 9 on a PPC target. At least that's what HE said. I had to settle for 17 tens and x's.
And, at 25 yards... Did you challenge??
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by james r chapman on Tue May 05, 2015 1:49 pm

When I went from lh barricade to rh barricade after my first shot I realized I was aiming at his target. The targets and barricades were not aligned to well. I could have sworn it was an X, lol

I wasn't good enough yet so I had 17 pretty distinct holes in my target.

As an aside, I had one Border Patrol agent put a bushy weed under his target. I later found out that's how he could find his target.
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by CR10X on Tue May 05, 2015 2:29 pm

You know, I was pretty much finished posting for a while but the obvious misinformation, incorrect procedures, and just plain wrong stuff in this thread forces me to make one more small suggestion.

PLEAS READ THE RULES!

Read it in order and apply in that order for excessive hits.

Thank you.

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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

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