Cross fire discovered in SF

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Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Jack H on Mon May 04, 2015 12:42 pm

First topic message reminder :

If during SF you spot a shot on your target from your neighbor, do you nudge the neighbor right then and say thanks for the ten.  ha ha
Then your neighbor says "just trying to help" 

Or do you wait and sort out the score s later.
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Jack H on Tue May 05, 2015 6:29 pm

Cecil read my posts

I see a lot of topic diversion, but my questions were and are

1.  In the middle of your SF, if you SEE a neighbor crossfire hit in your scope, do you tell your neighbor in hopes to minimize the 14.10 effect on YOU and maybe them?  Assume his shot holes look exactly like yours. 

2.  If you spotted your second shot and there are 4 hits, do you have to continue?

3.  Is there an alternative to completing your target and relying on 14.10 to sort it out?  There could be 20 shots on your target in the worst case. 

I think it is very possible to mess your head up if you know your are being sucked into a 14.10 situation through no fault of yours..

Yes I know how to sort out excessive hit.  But if you see it happening during Sf and it might continue, is there an option????
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by CR10X on Tue May 05, 2015 7:06 pm

Jack, I was not talking about the original post exactly, but everything in between.  Where the heck did a +1 score ever come from, etc.

Anyway, I've been crossfire on so many times in one match I actually ran out of ammo for the match doing slow fire refires, so I do have some experience with both the procedure and the conditions.  I've been there when a whole rapid fire, refire string at Perry was crossfired on another target. Now that will send your score to the bottom.

As far as I have every been able to read, unless you have not fired a shot, there's not much of an option left for the shooter except going through the 14.10 process.  I would not just stop shooting because then I (the shooter) would now be responsible for not completing the string.  It would then seem to be in the hands on the Match Director or referee to decide if I get a refire in that case.  If I just go ahead and shoot, I know what the rules say with respect to my (the shooters) options.  So, for me I'd just relax and just shoot.  

Anyway, the rules provide you will a unobstructed refire or taking the low ten.  It's the shooter's call on taking the low ten.  Do't worry about the other holes.  AND, its good training to see if you can really call YOUR shots.   You never know, the first part of 14.10 may apply and the scorer can tell the difference in the holes.

So, anyway in answer to your original post.  Just go ahead and shoot unless you decide to do something else.  Discussion with someone on the line (who might not be pleasant) would be way more distracting for me.  It's just a target with some holes in it, nothing to get upset over.  Even if it was your best target ever and you don't shoot quite that high on the refire target, you still shot that first one.  Relax and have fun.

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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by dronning on Tue May 05, 2015 7:13 pm

Jack H wrote:...But if you see it happening during Sf and it might continue, is there an option????

If you were absolutely certain who it was and you told them, wouldn't that be considered coaching? They could go on to win their class if you caught it on the first shot OR they could shoot 1 or 2 more on your target and be out of the running.

And what if you were wrong and it was 2 shooters away, now you most likely threw someone completely off their game.

I was cross fired on by 2 different shooters on the same target, fortunately I was the only one shooting SWC and it was easy to tell which were mine.

- Dave
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Schaumannk on Tue May 05, 2015 7:34 pm

CR10X wrote:Jack, I was not talking about the original post exactly, but everything in between.  Where the heck did a +1 score ever come from, etc.

Anyway, I've been crossfire on so many times in one match I actually ran out of ammo for the match doing slow fire refires, so I do have some experience with both the procedure and the conditions.  I've been there when a whole rapid fire, refire string at Perry was crossfired on another target. Now that will send your score to the bottom.

As far as I have every been able to read, unless you have not fired a shot, there's not much of an option left for the shooter except going through the 14.10 process.  I would not just stop shooting because then I (the shooter) would now be responsible for not completing the string.  It would then seem to be in the hands on the Match Director or referee to decide if I get a refire in that case.  If I just go ahead and shoot, I know what the rules say with respect to my (the shooters) options.  So, for me I'd just relax and just shoot.  

Anyway, the rules provide you will a unobstructed refire or taking the low ten.  It's the shooter's call on taking the low ten.  Do't worry about the other holes.  AND, its good training to see if you can really call YOUR shots.   You never know, the first part of 14.10 may apply and the scorer can tell the difference in the holes.

So, anyway in answer to your original post.  Just go ahead and shoot unless you decide to do something else.  Discussion with someone on the line (who might not be pleasant) would be way more distracting for me.  It's just a target with some holes in it, nothing to get upset over.  Even if it was your best target ever and you don't shoot quite that high on the refire target, you still shot that first one.  Relax and have fun.
My bad.    Cecil is correct of course on the scoring.  

You should just shoot, and not bother anyone,   

There is one exception to that.    If you have not fired a shot yet, and you scope your target and it has a hole or holes in it, step back from the line, and shoot on the refire.  

This is allowed by the rules.  

A friend saw an Army shooter do this at a match last year, and looked it up in the rules.  

Just hope your scope is good enough so you aren't  looking at something other than a bullet hole.   :-).

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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by DavidR on Wed May 06, 2015 11:52 am

lol! ive mistaken a horse fly on my target for a hole, he just sat there even while bullets hit the target!
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by james r chapman on Wed May 06, 2015 12:20 pm

Hope he wasn't in the 6 ring, and you made a course correction! affraid
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by LenV on Wed May 06, 2015 12:29 pm

I had a shooter next to me start grumbling then started laughing. As he was scoping his target he saw my bullet strike the target. I didn't crossfire. He was shooting on his target but had his scope on mine and was adjusting for my shots. He thought He was doing pretty good. He wasn't.

Len
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Colt711 on Wed May 06, 2015 4:32 pm

Jerry Keefer wrote:Once,  loooong ago,  when I was not yet at master level,.. I cross fired  on Joe Pascarella's target.. He was much less than impressed...Shocked Shocked  
Jerry,
You have just defined "poetic justice"! In a match @ Cols OH Police Acadamy I dsicovered Joe shootin' on my target, either 2 or 3 shots. "Joe, you're shootin on my target" "How many?" "2". Somehow it all came out right. One of the guys commented so I could hear "if Pascaella was shootin on my target I'd let him take as many shots as he wanted to"!

The rule being discussed here was commonly referred to as "the Pascarella rule". Joe started in our area as a SS. He was a great pistol shooter and the stories about him were legendary!!


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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Jon Eulette on Wed May 06, 2015 5:43 pm

One year at Canton during EIC match Steve Reiter cross fired on another USAR team shooters target during TF match. When we walked up to score the other shooter said "hey Steve between you and me that was a pretty good target"!. In only the way that Reiter could say it, he said "the tens are all mine" and walked away. I almost died laughing. Words spoken from a champion mind set :p)
Jon
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by C.Perkins on Wed May 06, 2015 7:43 pm

Yah Jon, that is the way Steve is.
Nothing seems to phase him, he just lets it ride.
I shot along side of him in Phoenix for all the practice and matches during my BE shooting.
Do not think I would have made master without his tidbits of information and help over the time.
I will miss his soft spoken, mild mannered smart a$$ dry humor comments Smile
Once he had a double alibi in the timed fire nmc of the .22 match and lost 10 points.
I said to him, that kind of sucks; he said, I will make it up.
He cleaned the rest of the short line after that.
That really impressed the hell out of me, but that's Steve.

Clarence
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Schaumannk on Wed May 06, 2015 8:13 pm

My second LEG match ever was at Canton, and Steve was scoring me.  

My most prominent memory is that he was shooting a Beretta, maybe a new gun to him, and he got to the line, and only had one magazine. 

He asked down the line, and no one seems to have an extra magazine, so, no big deal, he just shot with only one.

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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by sixftunda on Thu May 07, 2015 8:21 pm

Reminds me of the urban legend of the team shooter who fired his first TF string into his teammates target.  He told him quickly, so they each shot their next string into the other target together :-)
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Schaumannk on Thu May 07, 2015 10:15 pm

sixftunda wrote:Reminds me of the urban legend of the team shooter who fired his first TF string into his teammates target.  He told him quickly, so they each shot their next string into the other target together :-)
This is why you want your team mates all shooting the same caliber, and the same ammo.  


Shenanigans.    Embarassed

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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Froneck on Fri May 08, 2015 8:12 am

Jon Eulette wrote:I'VE NEVER SEEN A TRIGGER WEIGHED AT ANY MATCH WITH THE EXCEPTION OF EIC MATCH. CLAIMING SOMEONE IS SHOOTING LIGHT TRIGGERS IS B.S. WITHOUT PROOF! HERESAY IS B.S.

I think we need to focus on facts and keep our focus positive!

Jon
Number of complaints about DI and others using light triggers prompted trigger weigh in at Perry. It was kinda stupid at first, triggers were were checked after the match was over. To many referees did not know how to weigh triggers and many were disqualified by them. After a number of complaints it was suspended that year but still continues but changed to before the match. There is a way for other shooter to request testing of suspected shooter with light triggers though I don't know how. And yes DI was caught at Perry with light triggers! I never requested it but I seen triggers tested at matches! It was in the rules, I'll have to check but if a record is broken the gun is checked.
 Furthermore it is against the rules to mark a target so as prevent cross fires

 Frank


Last edited by Froneck on Fri May 08, 2015 9:39 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : spelling errors)

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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by james r chapman on Fri May 08, 2015 8:40 am

I think its like NASCAR.. the shooting just makes the spring go lighter, honest! It started off legal!
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Froneck on Fri May 08, 2015 11:24 am

A lot can happen to a gun shooting 90 rounds especially in the sun and or rain at Perry. I can understand the trigger may lighten somewhere in the sequence of shooting 90 rounds. During the time when I think it was Gilcrest or something like that was moved from CMP to NRA and required trigger weight check after the shooting completed the Army Armorers said it would be very difficult to make a trigger intentionally get lighter during the match. But if a screw were to be placed in the place as Keefer does to adjust trigger weight as used for the ,22 conversion. His version is either screw in or out but one can be made so that it is always in and trigger weight could be easily changed and not noticed.
 The AW has a screw just below the trigger guard to adjust the weight and it to can be moved during the match so if someone wanted to cheat it's possible to do so and not be detected unless the gun were to be taken from the shooter after the last round was fired.

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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by DavidR on Fri May 08, 2015 11:34 am

A cheater can always find a way to gain points, its sad but it happens in every sport.
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by dronning on Fri May 08, 2015 1:55 pm

DavidR wrote:A cheater can always find a way to gain points, its sad but it happens in every sport.

Like the Boston marathoner Rosie Ruiz slipping in at mile 23 and kicking it for the win back in 1980. It's been tried many time since too!

- Dave
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Jon Eulette on Fri May 08, 2015 2:12 pm

Perry aside, has anyone ever seen triggers weighed at a match besides EIC? If yes how often?  I regularly work on pistols that shooters complain that pull is heavy and in most cases over 1/2 pound too light.
Jon
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by LenV on Fri May 08, 2015 2:38 pm

Jon. We have random triggers weighed at almost every match. For state and regionals all the triggers are weighed. That is in Sherwood, OR.  There are some matches that get skipped but not the important ones.

Len
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by DavidR on Fri May 08, 2015 3:45 pm

At all the matches many state and regionals and ranges I never had one checked except on a ballgun for a cmp match and once on the line at perry, but that was a random check, not every shooter was included.
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Schaumannk on Fri May 08, 2015 4:10 pm

DavidR wrote:At all the matches many state and regionals and ranges I never had one checked except on a ballgun for a cmp match and once on the line at perry, but that was a random check, not every shooter was included.
Some matches do it, some don't.     If it isn't a registered match, match directors can do as they wish.  

Doesn't mean that some triggers aren't light.   Some guns also don't have all safeties functioning either.  


I doubt that there are too many shooters who want to shoot a national record, and then get DQed based on their trigger weight, or something else wrong with the gun.  

I always keep mine a little heavy, just in case.  It is both the smart and ethical thing to do.

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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Froneck on Fri May 08, 2015 4:35 pm

So as to keep like Perry a number of matches I have went to have the random check. I like it, I don't mind getting beat by someone that has shot better than me because they earned it! I don't like loosing to someone cheating! I like keeping the playing field as level as possible!

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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Jerry Keefer on Fri May 08, 2015 4:49 pm

Many/most of the M & HM shooters I deal with, to include my lady shooter, do not like light triggers. They complain that it's too difficult to start pre loading the trigger pressure coming out of recoil..I just finished setting her 52 at 3-1/2 lbs.
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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

Post by Schaumannk on Fri May 08, 2015 4:56 pm

Jerry Keefer wrote:Many/most of the M & HM shooters I deal with, to include my lady shooter, do not like  light triggers.  They complain that it's too difficult to start pre loading the trigger pressure coming out of recoil..I just finished setting her 52 at 3-1/2 lbs.
In my experience you can be a little more aggressive with a heavier trigger, and this can be a very helpful skill to develop.  

Lots of people have found they shoot better by setting all their triggers the same. 



If you are a bullseye shooter, that default should be 3.5 pounds.  

If hardball is your game,  make that a little over four....

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Re: Cross fire discovered in SF

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