Warner Total Radius Sear

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Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by Jerry Keefer on 5/31/2015, 3:17 pm

This is a  reply to a recent request to  describe the total radius sear face/trigger job. An innovation of Chuck Warner.. I was fortunate to be on the ground floor of this when Chuck was brain storming it.. It only took 100 years but he figured  it out.. Over many years, I had invested heavily into precision measuring equipment and tooling to enable the reproduction of a bullseye trigger job that any HM would appreciate.. Playing the angle game can be very difficult at best.    My lady shooter shot the first and only total radius sear at Camp Perry that year.. That same sear is still running with absolutely zero problems, and she has done extremely well with it. .404 is a magic number.. How long is the sear..?? From the pivot pin C/L to the sear face.??  Many sears, that a smith may be struggling with are shorter than the .404 . There also needs to be an accurate way to measure it.. Chuck's Jig/Fixture does all that for the smith.. It works off the sear pin center line, and if it is too short, it will be apparent.
As soon as Chuck mentioned the concept, the Harig fixture, and Suburban Master Grind seemed the logical way to go for me.  Below you will see the Master Grind fixtured to grind the sear face.  These precision tools are accurate to 5 decimal places.. You can remove the Dykem from from the sear face and not touch the metal..So it will produce a super accurate sear face with minimal material removal.. I have yet to have a sear that did not clean up full face with more than a few tenths of grinding.. Half the battle is won.. Then it is  on to the other components of the trigger job, but that sear is as perfect as humanly possible. The sear rotates on the pin, and the radius face neither lifts the hammer nor drops the hammer..Neutral angles can come close.. But it is much tougher to do, especially without the benefit of comparators and or tool maker microscopes.
The Harig and Suburbans can be motor driven.. which I prefer.. Anything to remove human imperfection.   
 
A picture of the sear support fixture ground on the same axis as the tool.

In the grinder

Finished product..
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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by Rob Kovach on 5/31/2015, 9:15 pm

That looks really nice.
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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by james r chapman on 5/31/2015, 9:33 pm

Yummm...
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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by Jon Eulette on 5/31/2015, 9:59 pm

I'm going to be purchasing the jig soon. I have a lot of 2 handed shooters starting to request longer rolls on their trigger jobs.
Jon
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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by Froneck on 5/31/2015, 10:42 pm

These photos are of my grinding fixture I used for years. Adam's roll trigger was done with this fixture. I use a slightly different method. First I hard chrome the surface for long wear. I tried calling the guy that did my hard chrome plating, he was really good. Did all the Aluminum can dies for Budweiser. But he's gone so I ordered a hard chrome plating kit and plan to do it myself. I then grind the surface with a Diamond Cup Wheel, regular wheels will not grind Hard Chrome. I finish grind with a 600 grit wheel and get a mirror finish. I also Hard Chrome the Hammer hooks and Diamond grind them too. That is where the angles are very important. I also use the High Standard Hammer. Not sure what else to call it but that's what everyone called it years ago at Perry Now even High Standard don't know what I'm taking about but I have a few! I plan to make some.
 I don't bother with those stoning fixtures available at Brownells or other places on the web, haven't seen a good one yet. Plus that radius stoning fixture does not stone the radius around the pivot pin so it's not right!
 I too use comparators, The J&L will make the sear 20" or more





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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by Froneck on 5/31/2015, 10:50 pm

Not sure where the others went so I'm posting the other grinding jig photos.

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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by Chuck Warner on 6/1/2015, 12:26 am

Jerry, thanks for your help and support. DavidR, thanks for the invite.
Froneck, if your referring to our jig, you are entirely incorrect. It does stone the sear primary based off of the pin hole. The other pin is for indexing the jig halves and for stoning the secondary angle. 
Since the jigs inception, the results have been exemplary. Many have done radius Sears since the 40's and 50's. When we had the discussion that birthed the jig, and now the ignition components, we never realized how successful it would be.
I told DavidR I would do some explaining and a tutorial, I'll work on that and get it here.
CW

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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by Jack H on 6/1/2015, 12:42 am

I got one of the Ax sear sets.  Has a great release.  But the roll starts with a creep.  Bad start, great finish.  It's in a Range officer with 18# main spring for a Nelson.  Someday I will have Roddy look at it.
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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by Colt711 on 6/1/2015, 1:39 am

Messrs. Keefer & Warner,

Great Craftmansship !!

Ron Habegger

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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by Froneck on 6/1/2015, 8:05 am

Chuck Warner wrote:
Froneck, if your referring to our jig, you are entirely incorrect. It does stone the sear primary based off of the pin hole. The other pin is for indexing the jig halves and for stoning the secondary angle. 
I do not know who's Jig I'm referring to. I've only seen one. A friend of mine likes to buy those gadgets. When I showed him the radiused sear trigger he liked it so much he had to buy a Jig. He brought it to the shop with a few sears he did. Comparing them on the comparator they were not the same as I grind around the pivot pin. I'm not saying yous will not work only that the one I looked at was not correct. He also had the popular flat sear stoning jig. When I checked it we found it was not square and would stone the sear at a slight angle. He was stoning bad sears for years! He called and they sent him another one, didn't want the other back. It was better but still not perfectly square. He called again and sent it back to be fixed, it was returned but still not square. I set up both the older one and the new on the surface grinder and it's perfectly square now. You could see the jig was milled and not ground. Being that he could not get a good trigger, he had a local smith do it. Better but not good. Having an extra sear made we checked it and found it to be stoned at an angle too. Checking with the smith he found that the same jig was being used.
 As to the secondary angle I don't like it. It seems to me it will cause unnecessary wear. Every time the hammer hook slides down the slope of that angle it wears the edge, though very little but after a while the edge will round. Furthermore when the sear is pushed off the hooks by the hammer on the the secondary angle the sear snaps back and will hit the half cock. That can be felt so then the trigger stop is adjusted to more than necessary. For that reason I use what has been called a High Standard Hammer. It does not require a secondary angle and in my opinion a much better hammer.


Last edited by Froneck on 6/1/2015, 8:36 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by Jerry Keefer on 6/1/2015, 8:30 am

Austin Behlert designed and produced the hammer with the High Standard style engagement. I have several left... I liked it, but not a huge departure from the norm..
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n/a

Post by Jon Eulette on 6/1/2015, 8:38 am

N/a


Last edited by Jon Eulette on 6/2/2015, 12:56 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : n/a)
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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by Jerry Keefer on 6/1/2015, 9:02 am

I have used this fixture for a number of years. It was designed by Al Marvel, who is a fixture genius, and Mike Curtis. It is "The Best" non radius fixture ever, and is infinitely adjustable. It is ground square in every direction and the contact  surfaces are hardened A-2.  When doing work at match sites such as Perry, and without the luxury of a surface grinder,  I was frustrated at the inability to precisely adjust hammer hooks. This fixture can do it all. Hook height, and  individual hook engagement.  All angles and height for the sear and hammer are adjustable. The insert that holds the parts can be used in the vise or in a surface grinder as shown in the last photos.





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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by Chuck Warner on 6/1/2015, 9:15 am

Since ours is the only Radius jig on the market, it must be our "gadget" . With thousands now sold, I have yet to have anything come back as you describe.
I always find it interesting when someone bashes something that a "friend" got, and call it "wrong". Funny that it's "wrong", but is achieving, successfully, exactly what your trying to achieve.
If you are going to bash the product, produce the evidence.
The jigs have never been milled
I'm a pretty open minded guy, and always open to criticism and suggestions in the interest of advancement. I have learned a lot from the likes of Jerry Keefer and KC Crawford that has bettered our product line, and always look forward to discussions that advance our disciplines.
If you don't like it, cool. Call it wrong, or make outrageous claims, back them up with facts please.
For those that ARE interested in facts, I'll post a new thread with some clearer descriptions and changes we have made for the Bullseye discipline.
Chuck

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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by jglenn21 on 6/1/2015, 9:43 am

here is the latest design of The true radius sear jig just so everyone is on the same playing field


https://shop.harrisoncustom.com/hd-806-true-radius-pro-sear-stoning-jig


many ways to skin the same cat..


Last edited by jglenn21 on 6/1/2015, 10:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by DavidR on 6/1/2015, 10:06 am

Thanks Chuck, and welcome to the forum, thanks Jerry for your posts as always very detailed and interesting. As to the Warner true radius jigs, here is my 2 cents. I bought the first one and used it and it was way better than the ed brown jig and the marvel jig in ease of getting a usable trigger job, but imo it was not perfect, I did not like the sear pin not fitting flush which made it difficult to get it straight in my vise plus you had to search for just the right length of sear or it took forever to cut it down to the size that fit the jig. I guess my thoughts were some others had and chuck came out with a new version that corrected those issues and I use it now. I just found another forum where its mostly  about 1911 gun smithing and I noticed Mr. Warner was a member so I asked him for a tutorial on the correct use to get the best result and he has agreed to provide it, thank you! As for Fronecks remarks, Frank very few of us have the ability or the machinist tools to do sears or other items like you and Jerry, the fact that a 120.00 tool might not work to the level of a ???? what 10k or better one is to be expected but please refrain from criticizing items unless you have personally used the item being discussed. This discussion is about the NEW version of the Warner true radius jig. I look forward to the tutorial and any insight into what parts will help us as bullseye shooters who enjoy or can only afford to do some of the work on our guns ourselves.
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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by Froneck on 6/1/2015, 11:18 am

Yes the Hammer is the one I'm talking about! Austin did sell it as a drop-in kit for crisp trigger. It wasn't crisp but had a nice roll I liked! I doubt Austin made it, probably had someone else do it. I like that Hammer design because it does not need a secondary angle. Sear engagement is controlled by the lower portion of the notch.
 Those fixtures shown look good and not the ones I'm thinking about! One had the adjustable elevation, one roller bearing, was a multiple piece device but nothing was square. AMU had one and eventually stopped using it. It looked good but was not square and fit well, any adjustment would result is different angles. I don't remember much about the other radius stoning jig, I seen it once a few years ago. Since then my friend stopped shooting Pistol and is into Rifle now. It was not the one you have in the photo nor did radius around the pivot pin.
 As to Gadgets! I have quite a few useful gadgets in my shop, the Digital Readout System on my mills and jig borers are one of them! They are not needed but make using the machine so much easier!!! So much so I don't want to be without them! I also have many other gadgets in my shop that are of almost equal as useful as the DRO's.
 However there is quite a bit of poorly made items that will not yield the results intended! To often those wanting to make a buck will sell anything and claim great results that will never happen! I might add that theses Warner Jigs are not one of them and seem well made and will function as desired.  Buying one of those other devices and expecting the results claimed but understanding that when the task is preformed it was not as required is understandable, I have purchased a few things that never preformed as expected. I simply curse the item and put it in my junk pile to be used in the future as a base for another jig or project. However those that don't understand the results desired were not as required and blindly accept what ever was provided are fools. They will continue using the device expecting great results that will never happen and too often do it for others too! Too many think that putting a wrench in the hands of anyone makes him a skilled mechanic! Even the best wrench will not make the person using it preform the best! When I see junk I will warn others so as to let them decide if it will work as intended for them.
 Yes there are many ways to skin the cat but if the way being done only removes the hair it's not correct. That handy Dandy Popiel Super Cat Skinner works great on TV but when you get it and drop your cat in and it comes out like hamburger may not be the result you intended!
 Not to throw gas on the fire but I'm wondering what stops the OD of the radius stoning fixture from changing due to repeated stroke of the stone? Is it hard Chrome plated?

 Oops I posted this before reading your reply Dave. If fact I was not criticizing anyone's Jig, there was none listed at the time. A handy gadget that will preform as I mentioned above to the desired results are welcome items to anyone's toolbox. Even mine, would be kinda hard for me to bring my shop to Perry to touch-up my sear if required! Likewise for all the other smiths that are there.

Might add one more thing as my memory is bringing-up details of the other Jig, It was much larger, about 3 times the size as the one Dave pictured. If memory is correct the radius fell away from the edge like the relief of a cutting tool.


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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by Jerry Keefer on 6/1/2015, 12:01 pm

Froneck wrote:Not sure where the others went so I'm posting the other grinding jig photos.
I have a question..That holding device pocket is milled..How did you hold the flat and perpendicular tolerances in a mill??. Are the two radial axis concentric, since it was turned from  square stock??
Unless that was machined on the same spindle axis as the Harig or other fixture, it is not zero to that axis and the sear face will not be true..
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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by Froneck on 6/1/2015, 1:18 pm

Bar was forged 4150, chucked in 4 jaw chuck extended so that both sides could be machined concentric. Chucked in Tool and cutter grinder so that sear side OD can be ground to spindle.
 Then in 5C collet block and in the mill to have the pocket cut. From there to Jig borer that I had a block bored with a slight press fit size and inserted the jig. To prevent any turning, stops were used on the square because of light press. Pin hole was bored after checking center with .0001 indicator. Though I don't like milling on the Jig Borer I took a skim cut to unsure everything is square, as you know milling machines are not near as good as a Jig Borer. Back to the Grinder and again tested with .0001 indicator to test if jig returned to same egocentricity as when previously inserted and a means to recheck when used again. Clamp was made from old Carbide toolbit shank, pocket was milled a few thousandths less than width of sear so it would clamp and not move. Diamond was used as I mentioned in a cup wheel so that wheel face moved across the sear face. May not have been to JO block standards but at least to .0001 though I think .000001 (millionths) is a bit much for a pistol. I would also think that .001 would be good enough and far better than can be done with a hand stoning fixture. I used a gauge pin in the jig that also fit the sears I had selected and hard chrome plated






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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by DavidR on 6/1/2015, 1:51 pm

Wow all cool stuff, questions! Jerry you said ".404 is a magic number" could you elaborate. And is the marvel jig you posted still available? and last that HS hammer is very interesting, is its design better than traditional and if so is that something some of you would consider producing?
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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by HenryA on 6/1/2015, 4:57 pm

GREAT THREAD!
Keep it up.

I've been thinking about buying one of those jigs.

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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by dronning on 6/1/2015, 5:02 pm

I had the original TR jig and it worked well, I just ordered the new version.

- Dave
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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by Jerry Keefer on 6/1/2015, 5:32 pm

DavidR wrote:Wow all cool stuff, questions! Jerry you said ".404 is a magic number" could you elaborate. And is the marvel jig you posted still available? and last that HS hammer is very interesting, is its design better than traditional and if so is that something some of you would consider producing?
Dave,
Chuck will probably elaborate more on the .404, but that is often considered the optimum length. As the sear becomes short, which happens quickly when hand stoning, the ideal dimensional relationship between the sear and hammer declines. When struggling to get that "feel" for a bullseye gun, with a short sear, the smith soon becomes the dog chasing his tail..
The jig in the picture is one of three that I know of. Al, Mike and myself..I modified mine to do hammer hooks, and use mostly for that, since I grind the sears for Chuck's TR.
Often, there is that one hook, ,that needs a tenth or two adjustment..I grind the hammer hooks on the grinder, but it's really tough to grind just one.. The cost to produce that fixture is more than considerable.
The Behlert hammer ...George Smith of EGW was shop forum at Austin's shop, during that time, and knows more about that hammer than anyone. At one time I talked with George about producing a run of those hammers. An undertaking as such is not cheap.. When weighing the cost to benefit ratio, it was not practical. I like the hammer, and the advantage of adjusting the sear engagement by the bottom edge is O.K. but I can do the same thing by grinding the hook side of the sear, and achieve the engagement that I want or need.. George Smith/EGW is on the cutting edge.. If that hammer was the end all be all, he would be making them..
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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by Jwhelan939 on 6/1/2015, 6:55 pm

I have been using the Ed Brown jig for a few years. It works well, but requires 6 hands. I would be interested in giving this jig a try. Is there a difference between the Warner true radius pro and the Elite Warrior tr pro?

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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

Post by Chuck Warner on 6/1/2015, 11:40 pm

JWhelen, they are one and the same. Elite Warrior is our new shop, bringing all operations under one roof. And yes, we have plenty in stock. I would also point out that in the interest of serving the bullseye community, our current TR prepped sears now have a .040 sear face as opposed to the standard .030. This added surface is gained at the top of the sear face and changes no geometry. We also have standard spur hammers with .030 hooks, off of a .268 deck height. These are available Optimised as well. Firing pin stops to match as well.
I like to think we are dedicated to developing better mousetraps for all disciplines of shooting, and think there is crossover that everyone benefits from. I will do my best to get some pictures and info up in the coming days.
Jerry and I are both fans, and owners, of the original Behlert stuff. While it was cutting edge in its day, it's more complicated than necessary in today's enviroment. KC Crawford and Jerry have helped me to see this discipline and its practices with open eyes and mind, and it's a lot of fun pushing the envelope, in theory and practice with them. Hope to share a lot more here
CW

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Re: Warner Total Radius Sear

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