Training for long line

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Training for long line

Post by T.Mac on Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:41 am

What are your thoughts on how to train for the long line?  I'm quite new to bullseye, and am loving it, but I struggle at 50yds. I've heard some say to start shorter and focus on getting the group size down, and translate that to a greater distance over time.  Others preach the "train how you fight" mentality and suggest pushing through the struggle at 50 to see what works and what doesn't.   What worked for you when you were first starting out?

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Re: Training for long line

Post by dronning on Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:52 am

Dry fire, watch the sights/dot, when you get it so it doesn't move after trigger release then,

Work on group shooting and shot process and hold according to the marine training manual. http://www.brianzins.com/wp-content/uploads/USMCPistolTeamWorkbook2.pdf

If your groups start to get bigger go back to dry firing.

If you go to the range and just to shoot your are reinforcing bad habits but if you have your trigger under control first then you will develop fewer bad habits. So spend more time dry firing working on that perfect release.

- Dave


Last edited by dronning on Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:44 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Training for long line

Post by Ghillieman on Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:01 am

Use the Marine Corps manual to build your shot process.
Follow your shot process or abort the shot.
Don't over think it.

Breathe
Relax
Aim
Slowly
Squeeze

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Re: Training for long line

Post by jmdavis on Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:33 am

Or Breath, relax, aim, slack, squeeze

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Re: Training for long line

Post by Rob Kovach on Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:53 am

Dry fire until the sights don't move when the hammer fallss, then Ball and Dummy.

When the hammer falls on the dummy round, you will see if your trigger control is good, or if you need more dryfire.

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Re: Training for long line

Post by sixftunda on Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:25 pm

Write down your shot process and follow it.  Revise it as needed when you do something that works. 

DRY FIRE!

You need to be confident with your call so make sure the gun and the load you are using are capable of cleaning the target.

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Re: Training for long line

Post by Froneck on Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:33 pm

I will try to find the Marine Manual I had. It was given to me by Zins and Lazoya at Perry a long time ago. I loaned it to an Ex-Marine friend but he lost the actual manual however he had a copy in his computer and Printed it for me. I will continue searching for it and post it if I find it.
 What seems to be missing from the Manual on Zins's site it the evaluation or problem chart.
 After each phase a description or example target was shown with the probable cause. That would be a great asset to any shooter following the manual.

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Re: Training for long line

Post by jmdavis on Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:48 pm

... Deleted, unnecessary


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Re: Training for long line

Post by Froneck on Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:05 pm

No that's not it. This one had a description of what was done wrong when shooting the courses in the Marine Manual. I can only remember one. When shooting blank paper and the groups started getting bigger the probable cause was that the shooter is seeing a group develop and it aiming for it.

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Re: Training for long line

Post by Rob Kovach on Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:15 pm

Here's a link to the USMC workbook. 
http://www.brianzins.com/training/

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Re: Training for long line

Post by Rob Kovach on Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:35 pm

Nobody should ever use the "wheel of shame".  No matter which direction the shot went, it doesn't matter.  

If you are able to dryfire and drop the hammer without making the sight move, you can shoot in the middle.

Thinking about why you made a mistake and shot ONE bad shot overrides the memory and confidence that comes with ALL of the GOOD shots.

Sixftunda is right about WRITING your shot process down.  I say IN INK.  There is something about doing that that compels me to follow the shot process when it's written down.  If you need to change something, WRITE a NEW process.

If there isn't anything in your process about how to shoot a bad shot, you don't need to think about that.

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Re: Training for long line

Post by jmdavis on Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:46 pm

Agreed Rob, that is what my mentors told me too. But I wondered which chart we were talking about.

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Re: Training for long line

Post by dronning on Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:35 pm

Just to take Rob's comment about NEVER talking about a bad shot one step further, put all your mental energy into how/why you shot that 10 or X. Never put energy into trying to figure out what you did wrong, only focus on what works.

As an example Lanny Bassham (Olympic Gold Medalist - rifle) started to try and figure out why he shot the occasional 8. The results were not what he expected, he started shooting more 8's. He abandoned that effort and started concentrating on shooting 10's and his 8 count dropped.

- Dave

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Re: Training for long line

Post by sixftunda on Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:39 pm

I've shot 2600+ five times now. There is something even harder than breaking 2600. Keeping 270 shots inside the 8 ring. I haven't done it yet. I always have two or three sevens. The reason I still shoot 2600 is that I don't focus on those shots. They will go away eventually.

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Re: Training for long line

Post by rich.tullo on Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:25 pm

50 yard line is a challenge for me because my home range is 25yds.

Indoor I shot 45 better than 22. 

Is their anything I can do to compensate. Not much of a problem for 22lr as my misses at 25 seem to be on paper and scoring for 22LR at 50. But with the 45 it always take me 10 to 15 shots to adjust. So typically I am in the 60s, then the 70s then the 80s. If did a good job with my reloading I will shoot 88 to 95 on the short line.

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Re: Training for long line

Post by Rob Kovach on Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:49 pm

Dryfire.
Ball and Dummy.
Follow shot process.

There is nothing different at 50 yards.  Mistakes look farther from the X than at the shorter distances, but good shots will be in the black or better just the same as if you were shooting at 50 feet.

Worrying about 50 yards isn't one of the things you wrote down in your shot process is it?

Rich, it's not your reloading that determines if you shoot an 88 or a 95.  It's your trigger control.  You can shoot lubed rocks out of a 1911 at 25 yards and shoot 9 or better every time.

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Re: Training for long line

Post by SteveT on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:14 pm

The Marine Corp manual is more of an series of drills, and it's for someone with a LOT of patience and dedication (or someone who has been assigned to the shooting team full time).

Dry firing is the way to train for slow fire. Adjust your grip and trigger finger placement until you can reliably pull the trigger without seeing a jump in the dot (or sights). I find that 10-20 minutes dry firing several times a week is better than longer sessions less frequently. If you can dry fire at 50 yards that is great. I find that the dot seems to move a lot more at 50 yards than at shorter distances.

At the range dry fire one then live fire one. Go back and forth making sure you use the same process and have the same mental program in your head for both.

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Re: Training for long line

Post by 45 MIKE on Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:32 pm

If you are on a standard Bullseye range put a 50 yd target at 50 yd at station 1 and a 25 yd target at 25 yd  at station 2
look at the sight picture thru your red dot go back and forth on the two targets the sight picture looks the same
the 50 is harder because you think it is harder but the distance magnifies your mistakes

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Re: Training for long line

Post by robert84010 on Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:34 pm

sixftunda wrote:I've shot 2600+ five times now. There is something even harder than breaking 2600.  Keeping 270 shots inside the 8 ring. I haven't done it yet. I always have two or three sevens. The reason I still shoot 2600 is that I don't focus on those shots. They will go away eventually.
My simple observation of your post is, and I'm sure you realize this, that day won't happen until you first stop typing "I always have two or three sevens". you are reinforcing what you say you want to stop by typing it. 



I remember very clearly talking with Lazoya about the wheel of misfortune. He simply said "do you see one in my kit?" NO! that is because no where on there does it show how to shoot an X. You cannot shoot an X while thinking about all the ways not to shoot an X. learn how to shoot an X and reinforce that.

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Re: Training for long line

Post by john bickar on Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:45 pm

SteveT wrote:The Marine Corp manual is more of an series of drills, and it's for someone with a LOT of patience and dedication

Well, yeah. It takes a lot of both to get good at this sport. That's why so many of us recommend that manual Smile

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Re: Training for long line

Post by jmdavis on Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:19 pm

The Marine Corps workbook will start you at 25 and help you to master it. It took me more than 2 years of rifle competition to clean a rapidfire target. It took me 7 months with the 22 pistol and after the first they started coming more often. I attribute part of that to the workbook exercise that taught me I could consistently shoot 10s. Fifteen minutes after shooting 10 10's in 10 shots, I shot my first sustained clean target. Rapid cleans followed. 

I'm now going through the same process with the 45. It's not fast but there is a reason that the marines use it. It works.

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Re: Training for long line

Post by Froneck on Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:06 am

The dedication to getting very good with shooting pistol (rifle or shotgun too) is to learn the basics and apply them. The Marine Manual is one way of many. Too often new shooter get advise from those that can't hit the broad side of a barn with a shotgun from inside the barn! Too often these same type will write books and are just as bad. The Marine manual is one of the best. However it is a modified version. I'll try to find my original. The Advance Pistol Guide put out by the AMU is good too but does not have the work through program the Marine manual has. I might be able to get a few copies of the AMU guide if anyone is interested.
 Rob I have seen that Marine work manual on Zins's site, it is a modified version. The original manual does not have the "work sheet" format but describes each sequence and has a guide to what the probable cause is of not doing as well as needed.
 45 Mike yes distance magnifies mistakes but the 50 yard target is harder simply because it's the same size at greater distance. The gun is also less accurate at that distance too. Learning to shoot 50 yards requires a pistol being able to produce a good 50 yard group. It would be much better to practice slow fire on a reduced slow fire target at 25 yards with a gun that will shoot good at 25 than attempt to lean from a pistol that will not shoot a good group at 50 yards.

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Re: Training for long line

Post by s1120 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:04 am

I went into this fearing the 50yd shots. My range is only about 20, so I was really shooting that 50yd shots for the first time at my first meet. What did I learn? Frankly bolth the 25, and 50yd targets were tough for this newbie, but really the 50 was really not any harder. At my limited skills anyways is showing the work I do at 25 is working toward the 50 also. I no longer worry about it. Not harder for me.... just different.

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Re: Training for long line

Post by Froneck on Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:41 am

s1120 wrote:I went into this fearing the 50yd shots. My range is only about 20, so I was really shooting that 50yd shots for the first time at my first meet. What did I learn? Frankly bolth the 25, and 50yd targets were tough for this newbie, but really the 50 was really not any harder. At my limited skills anyways is showing the work I do at 25 is working toward the 50 also. I no longer worry about it. Not harder for me.... just different.
 That's quite interesting, may I ask the score you are shooting and what guns your using?

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Re: Training for long line

Post by Wes Lorenz on Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:24 pm

T.Mac,
My epiphany came when I realized the .45 was no different than an air pistol.
Work on trigger and sight alignment, who gives a hoot about recoil....
Wes

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Re: Training for long line

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