Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

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Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by dronning on Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:50 pm

On a series 80 lower we eliminated the firing pin block parts (upper and lower sear levers), to get a smoother trigger operation.

Since there is no pin lock plunger on the conversion would the gun pass inspection for keeping all safety devices in place?

- Dave

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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by LenV on Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:13 pm

That opens a can of worms. Was it legal to put the conversion on the series 80 because it doesn't have a pin lock plunger?

Len

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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by C.Perkins on Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:44 pm

(1) The .45 is not a .45 anymore, it is a .22

(2) You have eliminated the slide that contains the primary function of the series 80 safety.

To me it is a moot point.
Should be legal imop.

Clarence

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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by Fire Escape on Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:09 am

C.Perkins wrote:(1) The .45 is not a .45 anymore, it is a .22

(2) You have eliminated the slide that contains the primary function of the series 80 safety.

To me it is a moot point.
Should be legal imop.

Clarence


You will never be a bureaucrat with that kind of logical thought process. Unfortunately (for competitors), I am guessing that you won't be the one making the decision on the line.

Bruce

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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by rich.tullo on Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:23 am

and you can go 2.5 on the trigger although 3 feels better to me

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Series 80 Conversions

Post by Richard Ashmore on Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:28 am

dronning wrote:On a series 80 lower we eliminated the firing pin block parts (upper and lower sear levers), to get a smoother trigger operation.

Since there is no pin lock plunger on the conversion would the gun pass inspection for keeping all safety devices in place?

- Dave

  Best thing is get a ruling from Dennis Willing and/or the Protest Committee.

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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by DavidR on Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:58 am

You are removing the slide, so there is no way to keep it as manufactured, if it was illegal, then every series 80 conversion is and I have never seen any question raised by a match director or RO about this, Now if you did it to a 45 then it is not legal but ive never seen anyone disqualified for it either.

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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by LenV on Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:26 pm

My earlier comment was to point out that it didn't matter what they did to the trigger after the slide was removed since the damage /removal of that safety was already a feat accompli. After thinking about it for awhile though I wonder if it wouldn't open a whole new set of questions if the series 80 wasn't a dedicated lower. One of the neat things about a conversion is the ability to switch back and forth rapidly. Would the pistol be legal (I think it would) as a .22 but not legal if switched back to a 45?

Len

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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by Froneck on Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:49 pm

One thing to remember, Fred Kart got into hot water quite a few years ago and lost the eventual lawsuit. He sold his .22 conversion to someone with a Series 80 Colt. The stupid jerk was cycling live ammo thru the gun while sitting on his bed in a Motel near the match. (at least that's what I remember) The hammer dropped and the guy shot himself in the leg. Kart was sued and lost because his conversion did not accept the firing pin blocking device as provided on a series 80 Colt. (Also the court was in Long Island NY)
 With all the worry about accidental discharge especially at Perry it may be better to not bring up the subject with the NRA  A spot  check on the line will never reveal the removal. If some skilled checker does discover it I'm sure the NRA will make a one time exception since others were allowed to shoot the match undetected.

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Series 80 Receiver and .22 Conversions

Post by Richard Ashmore on Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:27 pm

Froneck wrote:  A spot check on the line will never reveal the removal. If some skilled checker does discover it I'm sure the NRA will make a one time exception since others were allowed to shoot the match undetected.

  Various Range Personnel participate in this board; don't count on not getting caught or the argument that others not found excuses you if you do get caught.

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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by Froneck on Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:50 pm

Though I don't have a dog in this race as I do not have a series 80 or a .22 conversion (sold my Kart long time ago) I would think that an open violation such as below legal weight would not be excused because others were not caught.   But the conversion is a rather gray area and so many are using the conversion. I'm not sure what the NRA ruling is of the series 80 and if the block was removed on the 45 version if that would make the gun illegal. I know back when the series 80 came out many were removing the block system. At first smiths were requiring a signed statement that the owner wanted the block removed, not sure what prompted the change but the smiths would not remove the block but would do a trigger "job" without the block, if then the owner removed the block it was on his head not the smith's. That was done as a precaution to a lawsuit and not NRA rules. May have resulted from the Kart situation.

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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by Rob Kovach on Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:42 pm

Isn't there something different about the half-cock notch on a series 80 hammer that would allow the hammer to follow the slide in certain situations?

I remember something but I don't know what...

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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by Jack H on Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:55 pm

As I understand the 80 series guns, they do not have the half-cock safety feature like 70 series. 
Am I right?

If so, a conversion on top of a 80 frame will not have a that safety for sure then.  Sounds unwise if it is so.

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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by LenV on Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:13 pm

You made me look. Series 80 has a half-cock safety. My series 80 Gold Cup has the nicest trigger I have ever felt. Pulls 3 1/2 lbs and feels like 2 lbs. All the safety stuff still inside it. Roddy Toyota does great work. He can make it so you can't tell the difference if they are in or not.

Len

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Series 80 Hammers...

Post by Richard Ashmore on Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:12 pm

Jack H wrote:As I understand the 80 series guns, they do not have the half-cock safety feature like 70 series. 
Am I right?

If so, a conversion on top of a 80 frame will not have a that safety for sure then.  Sounds unwise if it is so.
Series 80 hammers have a half-cock shelf, not a notch like the older ones.

I contacted Dennis Willing on this topic.  He is consulting with the Chief Referee and they will make a decision.

The basic question, in my mind, is whether the firing pin block or the levers that move it are the safety device referred to in Rule 3.

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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by Froneck on Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:03 pm

The Chief Referee?? Boyd?? (How ever it's spelled) don't make that call. The NRA sets the rules the Referee sees that everyone follows them. I had Boyd question a few things on my guns like a wide Beaver tail on my 208 only to have him over ruled by the NRA committee.

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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by Rob Kovach on Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:17 pm

Maybe Denny (the NRA Director of Competition) is simply consulting with the referee Frank--not for the referee to make the call but to find out if that call has been made in the past. I would expect the call to come down from NRA if this hasn't been ruled on before.

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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by LenV on Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:45 pm

Richard Ashmore wrote:
Jack H wrote:As I understand the 80 series guns, they do not have the half-cock safety feature like 70 series. 
Am I right?

If so, a conversion on top of a 80 frame will not have a that safety for sure then.  Sounds unwise if it is so.
Series 80 hammers have a half-cock shelf, not a notch like the older ones.

I contacted Dennis Willing on this topic.  He is consulting with the Chief Referee and they will make a decision.

The basic question, in my mind, is whether the firing pin block or the levers that move it are the safety device referred to in Rule 3.
When Richard pointed out that the difference was in the series 80 hammers I slapped myself on the head. When I went to check out Jacks statement I went to the safe and checked out the pistol. I should have went to the parts bin. The original hammer has not been on the pistol for a long time. The top picture is of a series 80 hammer. As you can see it has a robust half-cock shelf. This would appear to be stronger then the old style as it has 3 times the contact area. The middle hammer is the older notch style. The obvious advantage to this style is there is no contact between the half-cock notch part of the hammer and the sear in its polished area. The bottom hammer is new production and I can think of no good reason to do the half-cock safety this way. I just wanted to clear that part up. It looks like the series 80 hammer half-cock is the strongest of the 3 GI hammers I have in my parts.

Len


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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by DavidR on Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:00 pm

The series 80 is a shelf, it does not trap the sear like the series 70 hammer, if the sear is placed on the 80 shelf it will continue to fall if the trigger is pulled.

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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by LenV on Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:47 pm

Maybe they made them different later. But this is my series 80 hammer. It traps the sear.

Len



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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by DavidR on Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:04 pm

Some one modified that one.

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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by Rob Kovach on Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:08 pm

Len, I was going to say your hammer looked like a series 70 hammer....but DavidR beat me to it.

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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by LenV on Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:12 pm

Bought it new. I ground the end of the hammer off to lighten and fit a beaver tail but the half-cock safety was never touched. My series 80 Gold Cup is old enough it was EIC legal. It did not have a commander hammer. FN26404 in case someone wants to look it up.

Len

Might just be the Gold Cup. They may have used old stock till they ran out.


Last edited by OldMaster65 on Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:43 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added a picture)

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Series 80

Post by Richard Ashmore on Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:15 pm

Froneck wrote: If some skilled checker does discover it I'm sure the NRA will make a one time exception since others were allowed to shoot the match undetected.

  Tell that to the competitor on Range 4 who was DQ'd on Saturday for removing his firing pin block  Evil or Very Mad

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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

Post by james r chapman on Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:18 pm

was that with a conversion mounted??

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Re: Removing Firing Pin block on 22 conversion - legal?

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