let's talk .22 EIC!

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let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by james r chapman on Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:17 pm

My question,, how do you practice starts from low ready?

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by jmdavis on Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:29 pm

Download the Bullseye timer for your smart phone or get the commands in some other media. At the command "ready on the firing line" you must be at the low ready position. When the horn sounds raise the pistol and begin firing. 

Up until the command "ready on the firing line" you may rest, raise, or lower your pistol. 

This is the information given from the 22 EIC match at Camp Perry.

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by james r chapman on Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:35 pm

I mean, how do you practice it. Eyes on the sight all the way up,
Eyes on target bring gun up,
Who's found the quickest most accurate way with turning targets.

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by john bickar on Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:49 pm

Hundreds of thousands of rounds of international rapid fire and standard pistol.

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by james r chapman on Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:57 pm

john bickar wrote:Hundreds of thousands of rounds of international rapid fire and standard pistol.

I'm 66!

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by jmdavis on Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:41 pm

One shot drills to the commands from the low ready might make sense. I wish that I was losing points to the lift rather than stupid things.

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by james r chapman on Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:46 pm

I've been working on that, trying to get that first one off quickly and accurately.

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by rvlvrlvr on Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:54 pm

james r chapman wrote:My question,, how do you practice starts from low ready?

At my local range (NRA HQ Range in Fairfax, VA), the target carriers are programmable to turn with a delay and a face time in seconds (and to edge for a specified number of seconds and repeat a number of times if the shooter wants, usually used for action drills). I set the delay to 15 seconds and the face time to 20 (timed) or 10 (rapid) seconds (and number of repeats to zero; edge-time is thus ignored by the controller), then hit "Start". When I do that, I have 15 seconds until the target faces. When I hit "Start", I bring the pistol to low-ready and start mentally reciting the commands with about a 1-second gap between them:

(in my head) "Is the line ready?" - I look down at my sights, aimed at the ground. Muzzle is just off the bench (I'm kinda short). I align the front sight centered but slightly high of the rear sight notch.
(1 second)
"The line is ready." Continue alignment, finger on trigger but not applying any pressure.
(1 second)
"Ready on the right." Bring eyes/head up to target, mentally prepare to bring the sights into that picture, 'led' by the front sight.
(1 second)
"Ready on the left."
(1 second)
"Ready on the firing line."

Usually I'm slightly slow in my mental recitation of the commands, and the target will turn while I'm thinking "Ready on the firing line.", but by that time I'm already set.

I'll then smoothly bring the sights up to the target, probably looking down to find the front sight around the time the sights are about 20° below the target. The sights will swing up through the target while aligning vertically, and then settle back down to the aiming point at line-of-white 6-o-clock, and then I'll start on the trigger, as if I had just fired a shot and am recovering after recoil. The whole raising sequence takes me about 1-1.5 seconds. Then it's business as usual.


Last edited by rvlvrlvr on Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:43 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by james r chapman on Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:56 pm

Thanks!

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by john bickar on Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:00 pm

james r chapman wrote:
john bickar wrote:Hundreds of thousands of rounds of international rapid fire and standard pistol.

I'm 66!

Well then there's no time to waste!

In one of the past issues of USA Shooting News, I think there's an article (or series) by Vladimir Chichkov on rapid fire that talks about the lift.

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by jmdavis on Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:01 pm

Maybe combine that with two shot drills to make sure that the second shot is going in the same place. 

From watching them shoot, my belief is that the international shooters keep their sights aligned as the bring the pistol down and then switch their eyes to the target to wait for the lights. Bickar, can confirm or refute that, since it is just what I see watching ISSF videos.

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by jmdavis on Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:04 pm

Thanks Kent, I appreciate that. 

John, thanks for the article reference, I will look for it. 


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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by jmdavis on Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:11 pm

I think that I found the article. I will also link one from Sanderson about the lift as well. 

Vladimir Chichkov
http://www.usashooting.org/library/Instructional/Pistol/lift_aim_trigger_pull_july_aug_2011.pdf

Keith Sanderson
http://www.usashooting.org/library/Instructional/Pistol/Jan_feb_2010_pistol.pdf

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by rvlvrlvr on Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:24 pm

jmdavis wrote:I think that I found the article. I will also link one from Sanderson about the lift as well. 

Vladimir Chichkov
http://www.usashooting.org/library/Instructional/Pistol/lift_aim_trigger_pull_july_aug_2011.pdf

Keith Sanderson
http://www.usashooting.org/library/Instructional/Pistol/Jan_feb_2010_pistol.pdf

Hmm. Both Chichkov and Sanderson describe a lift that approaches the aiming area, whereas my technique has me going above and then back down to to the aiming area (treating it as a recoil recovery). I suppose I can afford to 'waste' that time since we have so much -- 10 seconds (and definitely 20 seconds) is oodles of time, compared with the five shots in four seconds of ISSF Rapid Fire.

All three techniques -- Chichkov's, Sanderson's, and mine -- describe getting eye-on-front-sight and sight-alignment while the sights are still coming up, so I guess I'm doing something right, at least =)

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by jmdavis on Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:32 pm

Based on that last 22 EIC that you shot at Fairfax, yea, you are doing something(s) RIGHT!

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by Jack H on Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:50 pm

james r chapman wrote:
john bickar wrote:Hundreds of thousands of rounds of international rapid fire and standard pistol.

I'm 66!

Good amswer.   Laughing  I'm 66 in 11 days.

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by james r chapman on Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:00 pm

Sands of time!

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by Rob Kovach on Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:15 pm

Rvlvrlvr wrote:(in my head) "Is the line ready?" - I look down at my sights, aimed at the ground. Muzzle is just off the bench (I'm kinda short). I align the front sight centered but slightly high of the rear sight notch.

It's very unusual for a shooter to be able to align the sight to the eye when the gun is lowered unless the wrist angle is changed.

For me the front sight is nowhere to be seen when the gun is down--I just lock up the wrist when I lower the pistol and pivot at the shoulder.  When I lift, the sight comes in looking good when the gun hits the aiming area.

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by john bickar on Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:47 pm

The sport pistol/center fire pistol rapid fire stage (née "duel") is a good training exercise for the lift.

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by Sa-tevp on Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:35 pm

Being a longtime Khaidurov fan, let me share this video:


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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by Sa-tevp on Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:47 pm

Some guy named Sanderson, check about 6:20 in:


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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by Sa-tevp on Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:52 pm

I always like how Gundegmaa Otryad gets her AW93 up fast:


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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by rvlvrlvr on Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:03 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:
Rvlvrlvr wrote:(in my head) "Is the line ready?" - I look down at my sights, aimed at the ground. Muzzle is just off the bench (I'm kinda short). I align the front sight centered but slightly high of the rear sight notch.

It's very unusual for a shooter to be able to align the sight to the eye when the gun is lowered unless the wrist angle is changed.

For me the front sight is nowhere to be seen when the gun is down--I just lock up the wrist when I lower the pistol and pivot at the shoulder.  When I lift, the sight comes in looking good when the gun hits the aiming area.

*shrug* I dunno. Maybe it's because I use a Ruger MkII with the standard (not 22/45) steel grip frame, or maybe it's due to my non-90-degree stance (maybe 30 degrees?), or both. Seems to work for me, whatever it is.

I do pivot at the shoulder, though.

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

Post by john bickar on Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:00 pm

Eye pointed at the target edge, focused at front sight distance.

Target faces, SNAP the gun up to the bottom of the target.

Acquire sights. They should be aligned.

Gliiide the sights into the black, refining alignment and starting trigger squeeze as you glide in.

Break the shot with the sights aligned.

Start squeezing again at top of recoil.

Break the shot with the sights aligned.

Repeat until you hear a "click".

Repeat this process a few hundred thousand times until you have it down.

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Re: let's talk .22 EIC!

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