Air pistol vs 22

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Air pistol vs 22

Post by jmdavis on Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:15 pm

I train some with the air pistol. What I've found from that is that I regularly shoot the air pistol (lp10) with irons better than the 22 with irons. What I can't figure out is why? 

I don't think that the reason is hardware, and my best 22 shooting does hit my air gun average, but just barely. Do any of the air gun shooters have any ideas on what might be going on? Does anyone else have an issue like this?

Maybe I am just thinking too much.


Last edited by jmdavis on Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:17 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Autocorrect is stupid)

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Re: Air pistol vs 22

Post by tonyg on Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:58 pm

jmdavis wrote:I train some with the air pistol. What I've found from that is that I regularly shoot the air pistol (lp10) with irons better than the 22 with irons. What I can't figure out is why? 

I don't think that the reason is hardware, and my best 22 shooting does hit my air gun average, but just barely. Do any of the air gun shooters have any ideas on what might be going on? Does anyone else have an issue like this?

Maybe I am just thinking too much.


Hi Jim, I've no idea what's causing your problem.  I too shoot with open sights(not irons..he, he), but my AP average scores are better than my average  rimfire

shooting. Maybe our problem is equipment related, I dunno.  I shoot matches with an LP1-C, but I mostly train(dryfire and live fire) with an

 FWB mod 100 because it is my most unforgiving AP. So, maybe I train more with an AP. Idea   Come to think of it, that's likely my reason

 for scoring lower with my  rimfire and center fire pistols.



Best of luck; Smile

Tony

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Re: Air pistol vs 22

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:23 pm

Trigger weight has a much bigger impact on trigger control than people think.

500g is much lighter than 2+lbs and it's a big deal.  When you train with your .22, CF or .45 it helps your trigger control for the air pistol, but I would argue that training with the air pistol doesn't do anything to help trigger control for the heavier triggers.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do it.  There is plenty of good training that comes with shooting air pistol, but if trigger control is what is holding you back, then I don't think that air pistol isn't going to get it done for you.

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Re: Air pistol vs 22

Post by john bickar on Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:50 pm

The scores between bullseye and air pistol don't track at a 1:1, or linearly.

They are different guns, different distances, different conditions.

When you say, "I regularly shoot the air pistol (lp10) with irons better than the 22 with irons,":


  1. You're limiting yourself with your self-talk
  2. That statement is based on a very limited sample size


The two are loosely correlated in that air pistol helps bullseye, and vice versa, but I wouldn't necessarily expect your bullseye slow fire scores to track to your air pistol scores down to three significant figures.

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Re: Air pistol vs 22

Post by AllAces on Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:07 pm

I've used air pistol like dry fire, except you get a hole in the paper.  I keep track of the diameter of my air pistol shot groups in a spreadsheet and set goals for increasingly small group sizes.  The fundamentals are the same regardless of pistol, grip, stance, breathing, sight picture, trigger pull, follow through, mental execution.  The fundamentals will transfer from pistol to pistol.  Most of the time when I have a bad string, say in .45 it is because I of one or more of the fundamentals.

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Re: Air pistol vs 22

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:19 pm

All of those fundamentals transfer when you shoot an air pistol except for trigger control--unless that air pistol has a 4lb trigger.

It also doesn't help your sustained fire shot process.

Dry firing does help that.

+1 for John Bickar's point that you are giving yourself a false mental image that you can't shoot a firearm as good as you can shoot an air pistol.
Read Lanny Bassham's book for more mental program info:
http://www.mentalmanagementstore.com/product/with-winning-in-mind/?ap_id=rkovach

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Re: Air pistol vs 22

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:54 pm

My Daisy has a horrible trigger.  I think that's a plus as a training aid.

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Re: Air pistol vs 22

Post by kwixdraw on Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:48 pm

Recoil.  I used an air pistol to help police officers who had bad flinch problems. Ball and dummy drills were not as effective because frequently the problem shooters were people who really didn't like shooting all that much and the uncertainty of when a bang was going to happen was worse than a regular shot. It made them more jumpy. The air pistol was perfect because it didn't bite and it didn't take too long before the shooter gained some confidence that they were doing most of the fundamentals correctly. We could then move up to a .22 and then to their service gun.

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Re: Air pistol vs 22

Post by jmdavis on Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:51 pm

These are some good thoughts. I hadn't seen the observation as limiting self talk, but I can see it that way now.

Recoil may be a factor, but when I shoot a 900 with the dot sight I am high expert to low master scores with the 22. What I did notice at Perry and what was pointed out to me by an AMU shooter was that my center fire recoil recovery was slow. But recoil with the Pardini is low (though still more than the lp10). Perhaps what is happening is that I am not recovering from recoil fast enough to insure good alignment and before the next round and I am rushing. But that doesn't explain slow fire with the 22.

Thanks again, I will work on some more drills and stop thinking about the problems instead of the solutions.

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Re: Air pistol vs 22

Post by Axehandle on Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:17 am

That little 10 meter air gun target is a bad little target.   If you guys are shooting master scores on these things you are some fine shooters.   I use mine to take some of the hammering from my hand, elbow, and shoulder.  Does good things for my follow through.    Big  cost savings too.  Nothing but good things to say about airgun here.  Bought one of the first FWB CO2 guns in the 80s.  Snagged a cherry FWB 65 last year and sent it off for a complete tune.  



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Re: Air pistol vs 22

Post by dronning on Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:15 am

The perfect AP trainer Steyr LP50:
Plus side
1) Trigger adjustable to 4lb
2) 1911 grip
3) scope rail for red dot
4) 5 shot capacity for timed & rapid practice

Minus side
1) Price

- Dave

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Re: Air pistol vs 22

Post by jmdavis on Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:38 am

Axehandle, 

I cannot say that I am shooting master scores with the air pistol and irons. I am not. But I am shooting expert scores with it (by NRA classes) consistently.

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Re: Air pistol vs 22

Post by BE Mike on Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:49 pm

All trigger time is good, well maybe, except for shotgun. If you are shooting, training mentally or training physically you are doing something to improve your shooting. When I was shooting well, when I wasn't shooting or doing physical training, I often would visualize. It's all good!

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Re: Air pistol vs 22

Post by SMBeyer on Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:59 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:Trigger weight has a much bigger impact on trigger control than people think.

500g is much lighter than 2+lbs and it's a big deal.  When you train with your .22, CF or .45 it helps your trigger control for the air pistol, but I would argue that training with the air pistol doesn't do anything to help trigger control for the heavier triggers.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do it.  There is plenty of good training that comes with shooting air pistol, but if trigger control is what is holding you back, then I don't think that air pistol isn't going to get it done for you.

John Bickar wrote:

I didn't move from Master to High Master in bullseye until I started shooting a ton of air pistol, and moved from 540s to 580s. You're not going to shoot 580s with a 747.

So shooting air pistol helped John get to high master.  Whats the difference between a master and a high master?  TRIGGER CONTROL


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Re: Air pistol vs 22

Post by Rob Kovach on Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:32 am

Air Pistol training can get a Master to High Master, but it would be extremely unusual to see a marksman training with air pistol and a 500g trigger to get them from Marksman to Expert.

I would argue that the Master shooter already has good trigger control and the air pistol training just cements the shot process and helps reducing wobble.

Scott, You are a high master--you know what it takes to be one.  I'm still down here trying to get where you are...I may not know everything, but when it comes to what goes wrong for marksman class shooters, I might be able to relate a little better because I was just there, being one of them.

For some of us, this sport is hard.  There aren't good coaches around every region and it takes this forum to get the pieces of the puzzle together.

What is good training for a Master isn't always good training for a Marksman.  That's why I posted what I did.

I'm just getting "adequate" trigger control NOW after YEARS of trying.  I attribute the control with shooting ONLY 4lb triggers for all stages of fire.  It brought me from low SS to mid Expert and I'm 1 hard leg away from distinguished now.

If you keep my answers in context with the questions of the original post, and the person who replied who was having the same problem you will see why I made the statements I did.  Without context they don't hold up for Master shooters, but they do hold water for the Marksman class audience they were intended for.

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Re: Air pistol vs 22

Post by BE Mike on Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:26 am

Air pistol teaches FOLLOW THROUGH. You might think you are following through shooting your .22 or .45 ACP pistol, but the air pistol shows the true story.

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Re: Air pistol vs 22

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