How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

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How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by Sa-tevp on Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:39 am

I'm a new reloader finishing up my last box of cast 200gr 45 bullets and am planning to load swaged bullets, and found when I pulled a dummy round that the .452" swaged bullet has been swaged by the brass to .450". The cast bullets stay at .452" after crimping. My expander die opens the brass to .449" ID with a .453" ID bell, which has worked great for getting cast bullets to sit well during loading and seat straight.

Any suggestions for changing my equipment or process? Is this a common problem with swaged bullets?

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by DavidR on Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:08 am

back off the crimp die some, its what sizes it down, .469 is the best imo, for feed and funtion

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by Sa-tevp on Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:59 am

To test your crimp suggestion I sized and seated but didn't crimp a swaged bullet, and the bullet below the lube line was .450" when pulled. The bullet was still .452" above the lube line.

I had been crimping at .467" per my coach's recommendation.

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by Fire Escape on Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:17 pm

I was going to suggest that this was just what the Lyman Type 'M' expander die was made for. I just went and measured some TZZ 86 brass that I ran through it last week and they are 0.449 to 0.450 so it would appear that you would not gain much. Different manufacturers brass may vary in how much they spring back after being expanded so that may be worth investigating.

I did not measure the actual size of the expander in the 'M' as I have it 'locked' into place with nail polish but I could check it if that will be of any help.

The tightness of the crimp might swage the bullets down at that precise point but should not have an effect near the base. If the bullets are so soft that they are being sized down by the brass, might they not also be obturating to fill the bore when fired? How to catch some after firing and measure them?

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by Sa-tevp on Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:33 pm

I'm using a Redding copy of the Lyman M expander and Starline 45 ACP brass. From researching it looks like the Lyman has these dimensions versus the Redding:

Lyman M 45 ACP Expander .449/.452
Redding 45 ACP Expander .449/.453

I'm loading on a Hornady LNL Progressive, with a Redding dual carbide sizer in position 1, expander in position 2, a Hornady powder drop with a .451" PTX in position 3, a Redding seater in position 4, and a Redding taper crimp in position 5.

I have found two companies that make custom expanders, but my experience with Bullseye shooting is that a lot of wheels have been invented already, so if these were needed I would have seen these discussed before.

NOE Bullet Moulds (.456) 456PC Exp. Plug

Buffalo Arms .452"-.456" Custom Expander for Redding Dies

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by james r chapman on Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:45 pm

the proof is in the pudding, shoot them and see how they group. Soft swaged bullets should enlarge slightly under pressure when firing.

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by Sa-tevp on Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:45 pm

Fire Escape wrote:snip

The tightness of the crimp might swage the bullets down at that precise point but should not have an effect near the base. If the bullets are so soft that they are being sized down by the brass, might they not also be obturating to fill the bore when fired? How to catch some after firing and measure them?

Bruce

I was wondering about expansion during firing too.

An aside, at one of the clubs we shoot at we found a perfect Magnus lead bullet on the 50 yard line. I'm still baffled at what chain of events got it there. Undercharge? Did it wash out of the berm? One of the famous 3.0gr BE one bounce 25 yard loads?

Stephen

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by DavidR on Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:20 pm

Your coach only loads hard cast if your talking J.G. open it up to .469 and don't worry about it, the swage bullets will expand more than hard cast, all they need to do is seal good and they will do that just fine.

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by kwixdraw on Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:35 pm

We had some discussion of swaging bullets during reloading a month or so ago. Another member (I'm sorry but I forgot his name) mentioned using the old .45 Colt/Casull dies and expanders to size the mouth of the brass less. I checked on the Dillon parts list at that time and they did not list a separate powder funnel-expander for their powder measures at that time. Just, ".45" so I measured the expander in the new conversion set I bought. .450 on the money. I guess Dillon figures .002 of tension on .45acp bullets is about right and .004 shouldn't be a problem for most .45 Colt rounds. If you try expanders from NOE or Buffalo Arms please report on your results. Al at NOE is a great guy to work with as is Dan at Buffalo. Dan is a long range shooter in BPCR and knows what it takes to get world class accuracy. If you talk directly to him I think you will get great advice.

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by Fire Escape on Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:49 pm

Sa-tevp wrote:
Fire Escape wrote:snip

The tightness of the crimp might swage the bullets down at that precise point but should not have an effect near the base. If the bullets are so soft that they are being sized down by the brass, might they not also be obturating to fill the bore when fired? How to catch some after firing and measure them?

Bruce

I was wondering about expansion during firing too.

An aside, at one of the clubs we shoot at we found a perfect Magnus lead bullet on the 50 yard line. I'm still baffled at what chain of events got it there. Undercharge? Did it wash out of the berm? One of the famous 3.0gr BE one bounce 25 yard loads?

Stephen

We find some perfect fired bullets along the front of our berm in the spring time. What kind of winter and snow conditions we had seem to play a part. Was it that cold on your range?

Bruce

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by Sa-tevp on Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:30 pm

The found bullet was at River Bend Gun Club in Georgia. Maybe a few days of freezing weather this last winter. What's fun around here is getting enough rain where the trees tip over and the bald tire drivers slide out like on ice.

I spoke too soon about not finding other threads on brass sizing to prevent swaging. Bruce Em and Noylj have discussed the subject several times on other threads. For some reason my past searches didn't find them...

NOE has a wide selection of expanders and the prices are low enough to purchase a set. How much case tension is needed on a bullet and the possibility of set-back are questions that come to mind. Will a taper crimp keep the bullet from moving around?

Here is an interesting picture of a NOE expander:


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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by kwixdraw on Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:57 am

Is this a Dillon style expander-powder funnel part or just an expander plug that would need a separate process? If it is a through the die powder funnel I am very interested in your results.

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by Sa-tevp on Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:11 am

kwixdraw wrote:Is this a Dillon style expander-powder funnel part or just an expander plug that would need a separate process? If it is a through the die powder funnel I am very interested in your results.

NOE makes expander plugs for Lee powder drops, but the plug pictured above is for use with a Lee Universal Expander, making it lot less universal:



I couldn't locate any information for Dillon powder through expanders other than some references to a product made by GS Custom, but it looks like basic lathe work on a larger expander could get the dimensions needed. Another idea is plating to the size needed.

NOE posted some expander dimensions in the Cast Boolits Forums: NOE Expander Plugs
Notice the steps in dimensions, in case you want to make a slightly different size.


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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by kwixdraw on Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:44 pm

I should think you would have to start from scratch to make an expander plug that would work through the Dillon die. With their system the funnel-expander-bell mouth slides in the body that screws into the tool head. The sliding action activates the Powder measure mounted above the body. I didn't see anything larger than the .45 but then I didn't look for .460 or .50 caliber either. It does sound like an interesting project.

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by james r chapman on Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:30 pm

You can do the same with the Lee powder disc measure instead of the Dillon.
Easy to lathe turn a new thru feed expander.

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by Sa-tevp on Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:00 pm

kwixdraw wrote:I should think you would have to start from scratch to make an expander plug that would work through the Dillon die. With their system the funnel-expander-bell mouth slides in the body that screws into the tool head. The sliding action activates the Powder measure mounted above the body. I didn't see anything larger than the .45 but then I didn't look for .460 or .50 caliber either. It does sound like an interesting project.

Dillon has S&W 460 and S&W 500/50 AE powder funnels for 550 and 650 presses. The S&W 460 doesn't look like it has much to work with, as it appears to be a .452 bullet. The S&W 500/50 AE looks like it has more material to work with. Dillon says the S&W 500/50 AE needs an oversize powder die to go with it.
 Dillon 550 Powder Funnels
 Dillon 650 Powder Funnels

Since I went exploring down this branch of the road I've been frustrated that the large manufacturers do not publish specifications for their dies. It would sure help when trying to see what other parts are applicable on a project like this.

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by kwixdraw on Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:25 pm

I would imagine that they would give you the info you want if you give them a call. Generally they have been helpful folks. .452 bullets for the .460?  It sounds like they are talking the .458 rifle diameter bullets doesn't it? I've never had an interest in those hand cannons so I never checked on it.

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by Deerspy on Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:08 pm

I had one made for Dillon Square Deal just took old one which was .447 and had machinist make one just like it with .451 diameter it works a hole lot better.

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by kwixdraw on Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:13 pm

Dillon lists a "T" powder funnel expander for .45 rifle which I suppose would be a .458 diameter if it I actually an expander and not just a conical funnel for the powder. Since 45-70 is often reloaded with cast lead bullets Dillon may have made this both ways. Might be interesting to see if this could be the basis for what you want.

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by bruce em on Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:36 pm

kwixdraw wrote:We had some discussion of swaging bullets during reloading a month or so ago. Another member (I'm sorry but I forgot his name) mentioned using the old .45 Colt/Casull dies and expanders to size the mouth of the brass less. ice.

yup, that, and the expander plug; full length full size if possible

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by Sa-tevp on Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:06 am

I ran across this Dillon powder funnel replacement made by Double Alpha Academy in a discussion on another forum:


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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by Sa-tevp on Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:30 pm

After some research I purchased a Lee Universal Expander, a NOE .454/.456 expander plug and a Hornady New Dimension Nitride 454 Casull sizing die. With this combination the pulled swaged bullets are coming out at .4517", which I consider an improvement over .450" I measured earlier.

The 454 Casull sizing die also does not size the brass as tight at the neck as the Redding Dual Ring Carbide sizing die I was using earlier, but the finished cartridge still goes smoothly into a Wilson cartridge checker.

Thanks Bruce.

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by guncheese on Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:41 am

Sa-tevp wrote:

Here is an interesting picture of a NOE expander:


hey i resemble that expander !!

here is a link to the rest of the pix
that go with my work on this

im sure AL at NOE would make that in a powder thru for the Lee powder thru die

i run a load master so i put a lee universal expander die in station #2
so the die centers the case and bells it while the primer is being pressed in
it works EXTREMELY well

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by Sa-tevp on Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:25 pm

guncheese wrote:
hey i resemble that expander !!

here is a link to the rest of the pix
that go with my work on this

Pardon my bad manners, I failed to link to your site when I copied that picture like I did with the other pictures.

This is the link: GunCheese's collection of misfits

The expander did a good job but I think the Hornady sizing die not sizing the brass neck as tight as the Redding die helped in reducing springback. Back to working on the grip nut.

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

Post by guncheese on Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:13 pm

Sa-tevp wrote:
Pardon my bad manners

not bad manners
just good food!

no worries just wanted others to know where they could find more info so they can do their own testing

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Re: How do I keep my swaged bullets from getting swaged during reloading?

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