New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

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New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by Windlogik on Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:36 pm

Greetings everyone. I'm starting to shoot pistol and have mainly shot 22s. I have a 45, and want to start working with that. I am an experienced, competitive rifleman, so I have a basic understanding of handloading. I have also loaded a lot of .40 SW in the past. I understand the basics pretty well. As I have begun to research loads for bullseye, I haven't found a lot of material available for loads. And, of course it is preferable to use light-recoiling loads which aren't necessarily those listed in manuals. I will be shooting the 45 for centerfire and 45, and a Smith M 14, 38 special for revolver matches.

One thing I can't figure out, how do I determine the best OAL for a pistol load? It seems that there are some rules of thumb for this, and I don't know what they are or how to do this right. The manuals don't seem to be all that helpful with this. How do I figure this out for both the 45 auto and the 38 revolver?

I will be shooting 185 lead semi wad cutters and 185 jacketed hollow points in the 45 with bullseye. What is a good target velocity? Is there any benefit to using a lead hollow point wad cutter? What are typical loads, with bullseye powder, for these bullets?

I will be shooting 158 lead semi wad cutters in the 38. What is a good target velocity? What are typical loads with bullseye powder?

Thank you in advance. What a Face

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by Wobbley on Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:02 am

750-825 fps for both 38 and 45 for target work.  The standard(ish) loads are 2.7 bullseye in 38 and 4.2 for 45.  But vary it some as your gun may prefer hotter or softer.  Lots of other powders too.

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by kwixdraw on Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:17 am

Look at the favorite loads sticky heading up this section. There is some great info on loading for ..45 on Tony's Bullseye Blog. Look for the links on the right side of his page. That should get you up to speed.


Last edited by kwixdraw on Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:19 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : correction)

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by davekp on Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:59 am

You will probably get better accuracy with the 38 if you use 148gr hbwc rather then 158 gr swc.

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by Windlogik on Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:15 pm

davekp wrote:You will probably get better accuracy with the 38 if you use 148gr hbwc rather then 158 gr swc.

That may be so, but I'd like to use the pistol for distinguished revolver matches, and I want to just load 158 LSWC. Regarding the 38, I have not found any good info on the OAL of the cartridge. How should this be determined? Conventional wisdom is a roll for revelover and taper for autos. But, does the 158 from Zero have a crimping groove for a roll crimp? Do I use a roll crimp or a taper crimp? How do I go about determining the OAL for the 38 special?

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by Windlogik on Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:21 pm

Oh, regarding the 185s in the 45. Is there any benefit, one over the other, for HP or blunt SWCs? Does one feed better than the other? Is one more accurate than the other?

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:32 pm

Just my way doing things, but, I roll crimp my 158s and use the cannelure to determine the oal

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by dronning on Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:41 pm

STEVE SAMELAK wrote:Just my way doing things, but, I roll crimp my 158s and use the cannelure to determine the oal

+1, very slight roll crimp at the cannelure.

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by LenV on Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:17 pm

+2 on a roll crimp on the cannelure. I however would go with the 158gr round nose bullet like the HBRN from Magtec. Still DSR legal, cost the same and have been proven by forum members to shoot tighter groups at 50 yds. There is a thread on here about DSR loads that Don't suck. I use 3.5 gr BE with the 158gr HBRN.

Len
http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t2221-distinguished-revolver-loads-that-don-t-suck?

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by Windlogik on Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:30 pm

OldMaster65 wrote:+2 on a roll crimp on the cannelure. I however would go with the 158gr round nose bullet like the HBRN from Magtec. Still DSR legal, cost the same and have been proven by forum members to shoot tighter groups at 50 yds. There is a thread on here about DSR loads that Don't suck. I use 3.5 gr BE with the 158gr HBRN.

Len
http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t2221-distinguished-revolver-loads-that-don-t-suck?

Not the first time I've heard that. Was able to find these at Midway. So, is the cannelure for this bullet the slight ridge at the forward edge of the bearing surface? I'm assuming that the roll crimp should perfectly "capture" this ridge? It doesn't seem to have a cannelure that is easily seen like a jacketed bullet.

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:03 pm

the cannelure is a groove or knurled ring usually about 1/16" back from the front beaaring edge

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by Windlogik on Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:21 pm

STEVE SAMELAK wrote:the cannelure is a groove or knurled ring usually about 1/16" back from the front beaaring edge

I don't see that on the Magtech bullet.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/222625/magtech-bullets-38-special-358-diameter-158-grain-lead-round-nose?cm_vc=wishList

Is this a bullet that needs a taper crimp? If there is no cannelure, how do I determine proper seating depth? These are the kinds of things that trip me up with pistol ammo bounce

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:37 pm

I think that groovish kind of thing at the front is the animal.
MOST of the time you can get a suggested oal from the bullet mfgr's web site.
Iv'e also accumulated a large stack of reloading manuals, so I can usually find a load spec'd by most bullet makers.
The problem with multiple manuals is the same as having two watches, which one is right?

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by BE Mike on Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:44 pm

If the bullet doesn't have a cannelure, I always use a taper crimp die.

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by Windlogik on Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:07 pm

STEVE SAMELAK wrote:I think that groovish kind of thing at the front is the animal.
MOST of the time you can get a suggested oal from the bullet mfgr's web site.
Iv'e also accumulated a large stack of reloading manuals, so I can usually find a load spec'd by most bullet makers.
The problem with multiple manuals is the same as having two watches, which one is right?

I don't see a groovish kind of thing. Not a groovy bullet I guess.

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by Windlogik on Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:09 pm

BE Mike wrote:If the bullet doesn't have a cannelure, I always use a taper crimp die.

For the Magtech, How does this sound. Mouth of case lined up with edge of bearing surface, then taper crimp? I don't see a better way, thoughts anyone??

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by jmdavis on Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:13 pm

I usually have a thumbnail thickness of bullet body extending beyond the case (with the 45) this gives me an OAL of 1.223 with old Bull-X cast bullets. I haven't measured and tried and of my swaged 185's yet.

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by Windlogik on Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:13 pm

STEVE SAMELAK wrote:MOST of the time you can get a suggested oal from the bullet mfgr's web site.

No such data at Magtech.

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by Windlogik on Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:15 pm

Back to the Magtech LRN 158 for 38 Special:

It appears that they do a slight roll crimp with the mouth of the case just beyond the forward edge of the bearing surface. Is this a good way to go??

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/837/837037.jpg

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:35 pm

Windlogik wrote:
STEVE SAMELAK wrote:I think that groovish kind of thing at the front is the animal.
MOST of the time you can get a suggested oal from the bullet mfgr's web site.
Iv'e also accumulated a large stack of reloading manuals, so I can usually find a load spec'd by most bullet makers.
The problem with multiple manuals is the same as having two watches, which one is right?

I don't see a groovish kind of thing. Not a groovy bullet I guess.

When I clicked on the link & zoomed in on the picture, there is a vague groove towards the front.
As a last resort you could beg borrow or buy a box of MagTech ammo & measure one

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by james r chapman on Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:46 pm

If I was home I'd measure a factory one for you.

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by Fire Escape on Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:38 pm

Keep in mind that there are different types of crimps for a reason. In a revolver there are no forces that would cause a bullet to telescope into the case however under recoil the bullets will try to move forward out of the cases which could end up locking the cylinder from rotating. A roll crimp in a cannelure or over the front driving band will retard this motion. In a semi-auto the act of chambering can push a bullet back into the case with resulting high pressures, with the cartridges constrained by the magazine the bullets will not 'walk' out the front of the cases. In this case a taper crimp into a cannelure or the side of the bullet will reduce the tendency for the bullet to be shoved back. Does any of that mean that a different type of crimp can not be successfully used? Absolutely not but you should have an idea or plan as to why you are 'doing it your way'. Generally roll crimps hold bullets in while taper crimps prevent them from being pushed further in. YMMV!

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by Windlogik on Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:49 pm

Fire Escape wrote:Keep in mind that there are different types of crimps for a reason. In a revolver there are no forces that would cause a bullet to telescope into the case however under recoil the bullets will try to move forward out of the cases which could end up locking the cylinder from rotating. A roll crimp in a cannelure or over the front driving band will retard this motion. In a semi-auto the act of chambering can push a bullet back into the case with resulting high pressures, with the cartridges constrained by the magazine the bullets will not 'walk' out the front of the cases. In this case a taper crimp into a cannelure or the side of the bullet will reduce the tendency for the bullet to be shoved back. Does any of that mean that a different type of crimp can not be successfully used? Absolutely not but you should have an idea or plan as to why you are 'doing it your way'. Generally roll crimps hold bullets in while taper crimps prevent them from being pushed further in. YMMV!

Bruce

Thanks for the notes. I guess that nobody has really given a recommendation for the type of crimp that should be used with the Magtech 158 LRN in 38 Special. I understand the rule of thumb that you are mentioning. So, what would you recomend for this bullet? It does not have a definitive cannelure from what I can tell, but it does have a distinct edge where it transitions from the bearing surface to the round nose. Thanks. I ask because I don't know what is best, and I'm trying to have this worked out mentally before I sit down to load rounds.

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by LenV on Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:03 pm

I always use a roll crimp with wheel gun ammo. Hope this helps.


The lead is soft enough to put a roll crimp anywhere you want on this bullet. I made them the same length as my store bought American Eagle.

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

Post by Windlogik on Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:05 pm

OldMaster65 wrote:I always use a roll crimp with wheel gun ammo. Hope this helps.

The lead is soft enough to put a roll crimp anywhere you want on this bullet. I made them the same length as my store bought American Eagle.

Thank you kindly. This is exactly what I needed to know.  Very Happy   Apparently, the softness of this bullet is one of the things that makes it nice.



Does anyone have good knowledge on an accuracy comparison between 45 185 LSWC or LSWCHP?

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Re: New Pistol Shooter - Looking for Guidance on Handloading

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