Philosophical NRA question

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Philosophical NRA question

Post by Schaumannk on 8/11/2015, 9:28 am

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Why is it, that the NRA can send me between five and ten pieces of junk mail every month, but doesn't have the resources to mail out award points earned at Camp Perry?

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Re: Philosophical NRA question

Post by Schaumannk on 8/12/2015, 12:39 pm

BEmike,   I don't believe either you or Denny has the education or financial background to conduct a fair audit of either the NRA's expenditures, the CMP expenditures or the Guard money that goes into Camp Perry.  

It has nothing to do with intelligence, it has to do with both having access to the information, and enough experience in law and forensic accounting to understand it.  

Camp Perry isn't a lemonade stand.   It is a complicated joint venture.  


He, like you, has probably never seen the actual contracts, and financial documents pertaining to general NRA operations or their agreements with the CMP.  

Ignoring the fact that the CMP volunteers, and NRA volunteers at Camp Perry, as well as the target systems, real estate, staff, and offices are essentially a four party joint venture, between the federal government, the Ohio state government, the NRA, and the CMP without knowing who pays directly for what (and how many kick backs and write offs each party receives) is just silly.

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Re: Philosophical NRA question

Post by dronning on 8/12/2015, 2:49 pm

Being someone that was responsible for a $400MM budget and the person they sent in to do a walk through on a company valuations (I was always within 3-5% of assets and operating costs). You would be surprised how much information people on the "shop floor" can provide. There are a ton of questions that I'd have to ask but my guess it's a money pit.

It's a money maker for Ohio, I'd guess that Ohio charges back a minimum of 150% (33% margin) of the actual costs including all salary and benefits from anyone involved, probably all enlisted personnel working too, building rental market price for office space. NRA lets say they are only allocating 100% of salary and benefits of anyone involved. The Nationals are a month long, prep and wrap up time is at least another month, but not full force. The NRA could justify allocating 1/6th of some peoples salaries/benefits to the Nationals - how much to pistol 1/4 of that or is it by # of competitors? Do the NRA executives on the pistol committee get paid?. Then you have all the part timers that get hired. If the NRA hires them it's at least a 100% cost, if OHNG hires them it's a minimum of a 150% cost. What about all the computers etc. short term lease? - wow that's expensive because they must be installed and removed, is support provided? Do they bring them with - still pricy - because they could/should allocate the costs of their IT guys to do that work. Housing for volunteers, materials including advertising. Logistics in general. Setting up repair and take down of the targets, is this done by the OHNG or is repair work contracted out? Backers and targets + pasting, hauling them out to range and back, believe or not with labor, truck rentals etc.. that alone is way over $50K even with OCC scrap value at $150/ton.

The NRA & CMP bring in about $300K in pistol event registrations, so to me even with sponsor money (actual fees charged are on the NRA website) plus any fees paid by CMP to NRA for running the events, it doesn't take much to understand what a loosing proposition the Nationals are for the NRA/CMP.

- Dave

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Re: Philosophical NRA question

Post by Schaumannk on 8/12/2015, 3:21 pm

dronning wrote:Being someone that was responsible for a $400MM budget and the person they sent in to do a walk through on a company valuations (I was always within 3-5% of assets and operating costs).  You would be surprised how much information people on the "shop floor" can provide.  There are a ton of questions that I'd have to ask but my guess it's a money pit.

It's a money maker for Ohio, I'd guess that Ohio charges back a minimum of 150% (33% margin) of the actual costs including all salary and benefits from anyone involved, probably all enlisted personnel working too, building rental market price for office space.  NRA lets say they are only allocating 100% of salary and benefits of anyone involved.  The Nationals are a month long, prep and wrap up time is at least another month, but not full force.  The NRA could justify allocating 1/6th of some peoples salaries/benefits to the Nationals - how much to pistol 1/4 of that or is it by # of competitors?  Do the NRA executives on the pistol committee get paid?.  Then you have all the part timers that get hired.  If the NRA hires them it's at least a 100% cost, if OHNG hires them it's a minimum of a 150% cost.  What about all the computers etc. short term lease? - wow that's expensive because they must be installed and removed, is support provided?  Do they bring them with - still pricy - because they could/should allocate the costs of their IT guys to do that work. Housing for volunteers, materials including advertising.  Logistics in general.  Setting up repair and take down of the targets, is this done by the OHNG or is repair work contracted out?  Backers and targets + pasting, hauling them out to range and back, believe or not with labor, truck rentals etc.. that alone is way over $50K even with OCC scrap value at $150/ton.

The NRA & CMP bring in about $300K in pistol event registrations, so to me even with sponsor money (actual fees charged are on the NRA website) plus any fees paid by CMP to NRA for running the events, it doesn't take much to understand what a loosing proposition the Nationals are for the NRA/CMP.

- Dave  

While I agree with most of your analysis, a great deal of those costs should fall equally on the CMP. It is a complicated business.  

The fact that the government in the form of the Ohio National guard may be extorting the NRA has not escaped my attention. 

It takes two to tango so to speak.  


If running a pistol match on that scale, is a "money pit". It is because the the NRA, and the CMP have enough of other people's money to continue to let it bleed. 

A private club would not continue to pour millions of dollars into real property improvements at Camp Perry with no ROI.  



If they had to meet a budget, perhaps the NRA would have chosen to go with the economy measures we see at Canton, and other big regional matches, such as one fresh target for each day, with repair centers.   


The fine gentlemen and ladies at Canton says the Pistol Regional is their big money maker.    Somehow for an entry fee less than half of Camp Perry, they manage to provide showers, bathrooms, free camping,  three meals a day, (with one free dinner) and about the same number of range officers, and a tower talker that I see on each range at Camp Perry.  

If Camp Perry can't at least break even, I suspect that they are doing it wrong.

My background is in business law, tax law, and multi million dollar contract management. I have personal detailed knowledge of how government grants, and contracts are handled as well as being married to a fine gentleman who is currently the Chief of Construction and Maintenance as a large U.S. Joint Operations base in Asia.

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Re: Philosophical NRA question

Post by dronning on 8/12/2015, 4:07 pm

Huge difference on owning the assets and having to rent. I'd a agree that for Canton and many other large regionals the events are money makers - all volunteers, no charged overhead, all cash brought in over direct costs is usually considered profit. As you well know the NRA has to include all other indirect costs and allocate a %, admin. etc. when they balance their "books".

I compare the NRA's situation in Perry to the budding restaurateur that borrows everything to get started, has a great client base and goes out of business in 2 years. Compared to the guy that could buy the building and equipment outright and because his monthly outlay is low he flourishes. The ROI might suck but now he's running on a cash basis and making money.

- Dave

Your background is similar to mine sans the govt. grants. I was responsible for the initial negotiations and contract development. Spent 6 years in international business development working all continents, 4 years living in London trying to bring our European operations together before the Euro, so I can fully appreciate the Asia assignment. I made many new friends and saw much of the world I never would have. The frequent flyer miles were good too LOL!
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Re: Philosophical NRA question

Post by BE Mike on 8/12/2015, 4:43 pm

Schaumannk wrote:BEmike,   I don't believe either you or Denny has the education or financial background to conduct a fair audit of either the NRA's expenditures, the CMP expenditures or the Guard money that goes into Camp Perry.  

It has nothing to do with intelligence, it has to do with both having access to the information, and enough experience in law and forensic accounting to understand it.  

Camp Perry isn't a lemonade stand.   It is a complicated joint venture.  


He, like you, has probably never seen the actual contracts, and financial documents pertaining to general NRA operations or their agreements with the CMP.  

Ignoring the fact that the CMP volunteers, and NRA volunteers at Camp Perry, as well as the target systems, real estate, staff, and offices are essentially a four party joint venture, between the federal government, the Ohio state government, the NRA, and the CMP without knowing who pays directly for what (and how many kick backs and write offs each party receives) is just silly.
You are correct. Your education and experience in law and financial matters eclipses mine. All that has not won me over to your arguments. You have made some pretty serious insinuations. Perhaps you should initiate an investigation into the finances of the NRA and it's conduct of the national matches. I'm sure that no anti-gun organizations have attempted to take down the NRA through such investigating. I have been told that I would argue with a fence post, but I have nothing on lawyers. Smile
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Re: Philosophical NRA question

Post by Schaumannk on 8/12/2015, 5:03 pm

dronning wrote:As you well know the NRA has to include all other indirect costs and allocate a %, admin. etc. when they balance their "books".
This is the one point where we disagree.  

The NRA has no obligation as a non profit to justify what they spend their money on, to balance their books, or to turn a profit.  In fact if they did, they would lose their non profit status.

They are also not in the business of satisfying stock holders with an ROI.  

Their stated goal of the NRA to promote shooting, firearms training, and Second Amendment rights.   Like others have said, we are the ones they point to when they want to display responsible firearms ownership and use.  The competitors are the poster children for everything that is good about the NRA.  

If the NRA chooses to portray the National matches as a money loser because they are either unwilling to renegotiate a bad deal with the Ohio National Guard, and the CMP, move the matches, or make the sort of economies that a club or a commercial range would in order to break even, then it is unfair for them to bludgeon the competitors with the accusation that our division ( one of the only original purposes for the existence of the NRA to begin with) should somehow shut up, and stop whining because the NRA spends more money on the matches than they take in.  

That isn't our fault, and I know a few savy businessmen have tried to help them by suggesting a number of alternatives to the way the NRA  currently runs the National Matches, that might save a great deal of money, but these people, some of them on the pistol committee,  have not even been given the courtesy of an open hearing.

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Re: Philosophical NRA question

Post by BE Mike on 8/12/2015, 5:12 pm

I said it before, but it bears repeating, IMHO, the support of the general membership towards competitive shooting in general and bullseye pistol shooting in particular has been grossly exaggerated. I hope the golden goose doesn't get the ax.
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Re: Philosophical NRA question

Post by Schaumannk on 8/12/2015, 5:16 pm

BE Mike wrote:
You are correct. Your education and experience in law and financial matters eclipses mine. All that has not won me over to your arguments. You have made some pretty serious insinuations. Perhaps you should initiate an investigation into the finances of the NRA and it's conduct of the national matches. I'm sure that no anti-gun organizations have attempted to take down the NRA through such investigating. I have been told that I would argue with a fence post, but I have nothing on lawyers. Smile
What argument do you think I am making?  

And what insinuations have I made?  



I, as a private citizen, even as an NRA member have no legal standing to either request or demand an audit of the NRA or of the Competition Division.  They are not a publically traded corporation, and I am not a stock holder. 



Neither can any of those "anti gun groups".    

The NRA is a private non profit organization.

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Re: Philosophical NRA question

Post by dronning on 8/12/2015, 5:45 pm

Schaumannk wrote:
dronning wrote:As you well know the NRA has to include all other indirect costs and allocate a %, admin. etc. when they balance their "books".
This is the one point where we disagree.  

The NRA has no obligation as a non profit to justify what they spend their money on, to balance their books, or to turn a profit.  In fact if they did, they would lose their non profit status.

EXCEPT they have to justify their spending internally which is why the "books".  Sometimes justification of where you are spending the money internally to a non-profit is far more difficult and subject to all kinds of weird scrutiny.  I'm sure they have to beg for every $ they get for the Nationals.  If you think they aren't getting pressure to cut costs you'd be wrong.

Why they can't run the matches at a profit?  I believe only having Perry as the single option is a problem.  You also have a Commander that would rather not have any civilians on his base.  Having a private facility like Cardinal can do nothing but help with any negotiation at Perry.  We may be better served if a private facility took over.

As far as their stated purpose and NRA priorities outside of 2A which is another "arm" of the NRA, it's firearm education, training, marksmanship and safety.  Marksmanship was totally focused on the rifle for many years.

- Dave


Last edited by dronning on 8/12/2015, 6:35 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarity)
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Re: Philosophical NRA question

Post by Wobbley on 8/12/2015, 6:49 pm

We can argue til the cows come home about the state of the NRA, CMP,OHNG, and the Nationals, but the real question to ask is what can we as competitive shooters do about it?  We talked about a move from Perry to eliminate the gouging from OHNG, but that has other issues attached.  So what can and should we do?  Jawboning doesn't solve much.

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Re: Philosophical NRA question

Post by BE Mike on 8/13/2015, 7:17 am

Schaumannk wrote:Why is it, that the NRA can send me between five and ten pieces of junk mail every month, but doesn't have the resources to mail out award points earned at Camp Perry?
Back to your original question. The competitions staff is small and there are a lot of competitors who won award points. It always took quite a while for the points and medals to be sent out, but maybe they should increase the competitions budget and hire more people.
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Re: Philosophical NRA question

Post by BE Mike on 8/13/2015, 7:22 am

Schaumannk wrote:

And what insinuations have I made?  



Ignoring the fact that the CMP volunteers, and NRA volunteers at Camp Perry, as well as the target systems, real estate, staff, and offices are essentially a four party joint venture, between the federal government, the Ohio state government, the NRA, and the CMP without knowing who pays directly for what (and how many kick backs and write offs each party receives) is just silly.
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Re: Philosophical NRA question

Post by BE Mike on 8/13/2015, 7:28 am

Wobbley wrote:We can argue til the cows come home about the state of the NRA, CMP,OHNG, and the Nationals, but the real question to ask is what can we as competitive shooters do about it?  We talked about a move from Perry to eliminate the gouging from OHNG, but that has other issues attached.  So what can and should we do?  Jawboning doesn't solve much.
It would be interesting if there was big support for moving the matches from Perry. IMHO, there are many who would resist the effort, as Perry has been such a tradition for so many years. Even if electronic targets were "ready for prime time" there would be a lot of folks who would still want the tradition of using paper and turning targets. This isn't much different from those who refuse to read e-books and only read paper. I'm a Kindle guy myself! Cool
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Re: Philosophical NRA question

Post by james r chapman on 8/13/2015, 8:45 am

I hate reading ShootingUSA on my smartphone....
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Re: Philosophical NRA question

Post by r_zerr on 8/13/2015, 1:40 pm

This appears to be the direction of NRA Competitions:  https://wsc.nra.org/

I will reserve my comments; they are not very positive. 

-Ron

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Re: Philosophical NRA question

Post by dronning on 8/13/2015, 2:08 pm

r_zerr wrote:This appears to be the direction of NRA Competitions:  https://wsc.nra.org/

I will reserve my comments; they are not very positive. 

-Ron

Unfortunately bullseye will NEVER be able to compete with this type of event.

This will be a money maker for NRA, ANYTHING that can be televised will generate cash. Look at the sponsors they already have, hey the World Shooting Championship is using "sponsors name here" equipment!

- Dave
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Re: Philosophical NRA question

Post by james r chapman on 8/13/2015, 6:09 pm

Hell, I should go. Just telling them to provide proper left handed equipment will throw them into a tizzy....
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Re: Philosophical NRA question

Post by Rob Kovach on 8/13/2015, 6:14 pm

Want to be more suspicious?
Google "NRA World Shooting Championships presented by Magpul" and look at the $25,000 grand prize for the winner, and look at the course of fire.

They provide all of the guns and ammo for a $325 entry fee.
What's up with that?!
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Re: Philosophical NRA question

Post by r_zerr on 8/13/2015, 6:23 pm

james r chapman wrote:Hell, I should go. Just telling them to provide proper left handed equipment will throw them into a tizzy....

I am in the same boat.

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Re: Philosophical NRA question

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