Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

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Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by GrumpyOldMan on Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:03 pm

I'm not in a position to chrono the various stuff that won't cycle my 7-inch semiauto (SK Rifle Match, Eley Club, another Eley I don't remember which but not Tenex or black box, and RWS Target Rifle), but I'm thinking the stovepipes are now solely caused by low energy/too strong a spring and not the extractor. So I'm wondering if the "vigor" of cycling the slides is well-correlated with the muzzle velocity.

The question is prompted by the fact that I found the bottom edge of the extractor chipped, after even Winchester H-S hollowpoints were stovepiping. I sharpened it up but angled it backwards in trying to match the curve of the rim under it...corrected that and then the "bite" was lacking...and finally got all that fixed.

Before all this, some ammo types would fail to eject for the first 2-3 rounds starting off the day's shooting, then run fine when the barrel was getting just the barest bit warm. Even CCI SV would sometimes do that, about 1 in every 10 first round of the day, and maybe 1 out of 50 the first round after a longer break in shooting.

So testing after this latest bit of extractor work, the first round with SK in a cold, clean barrel jammed with the casehead nicely seated in the breechface and the case mouth displaced just enough to the left to hit the back of the barrel and hold the slide open. Not far enough back to pick up the next round. Cleared that, and the second round cocked the hammer and re-fed its empty into the chamber. Rounds 3, 4 and 5 in the magazine ejected forward to about 1:00, and rounds 4 and 5 fed fine.

With CCI SV still a bit scarce, I then ran 5 rounds of CCI Blazer through flawlessly and they ejected more at 2:30-3:00 from the direction of fire. 

It will be a few days before I can really test the thing over an NMC, but I'm going to shoot the CCI for score from a cold gun, and then finish off a few loose rounds of various stuff and see what works.

Thanks!

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by Rob Kovach on Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:55 pm

What gun is it. My crystal ball is saying it's related to tell gun or magazine

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by GrumpyOldMan on Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:04 am

Model 41, OEM magazines, both check out okay for feed angle and proper point of release.

Prior problems were mainly the dreaded sideways stovepipe with the round being fed underneath the sideways empty case. Sometimes the casehead is sticking barely out the left side of the slide, most of the time the case mouth is sticking out the right side. 

But there have also been a fair number of re-chambered empty cases under a re-cocked hammer with some specific brands of target ammo. This test *after* re-working a chipped extractor is the first time I have carefully observed ejection patterns. Small sample I know, but the CCI ammo did not this time and has never in the past short-stroked enough to rechamber a fired case. 

The chip on the extractor is new over the past few months--detail cleaning showed no such defect earlier, twice. 

Wanting to baby the thing, I've quit with the semi-regular use of the HV ammo, which shot fine before. Same reason, I don't want to throw a lighter spring in front of the slide. With .22 ammo getting more available lately, my interest is in seeing if there are any trends from others on what FPS thresholds there are on functioning with the factory spring. Then I'll just test what I have, and test what I buy in small samples, to get a listing of fastenough generally SV ammos for future purchasing reference. Glad I never bought any of that subsonic stuff a few months ago when that was all that was available.

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by Jack H on Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:50 am

Weak cycling ammo and it's velocity are not correlated.  The pressure curve is the key factor in cycling. 

In my chronographing from a Marvel conversion, the weaker cycling Wolf and SK are in the same velocity range as the strong cycling CCI SV and Eley, yet Wolf and SK cycling energy is very much weaker


SK Std Plus 930 8, 934 10, 922 4
Wolf MT 972 26, 980 10, 972 28
Wolf again 981 20
CCI SV^ 927 8, 929 22
CCI SV^^ 932 17, 942 19
Eley P Std 959 12, 962 11 (aqua)
Eley Tgt P 950 10, 944 2 (yellow)
Eley P Xtra 929 18, 931 9 (lt blue)

However in an upper range of sv VELOCITY, it is safe to assume the pressure curves are stronger as well. 


UM1 1037 15, 1026 12
Aguila SV 1013 20, 1020 11T22 1060 5, 1052 6
Rem Tgt* 1033 24, 999 16, 1022 19
Rem Tgt** 1025 18, 1017 11

However #2, Aguila sometimes cycles weakly.  But I think that is due to inconsistent lot batches.

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by AllAces on Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:09 am

My chronograph tests of ammo in a S&W M41 reflect Jack's testing. I had cycling problems with my 41 and traced the problem to a worn extractor and weak extractor spring. I tried reshaping the old extractor hook but it didn't work. The problem is a combination of spring tension, hook shape and hook length. I replaced the extractor and spring and 5000 rounds later have had no problems.

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by GrumpyOldMan on Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:26 am

More testing yesterday was not as promising.

SK Match:  First two rounds (cold) were a re-seat the empty case and a jammed above the next round stovepipe. Next three fired okay, which means two ejected properly to feed the next round, and the last one held the slide back.

CCI SV: First five, flawless.  One stovepipe in the next 15 rounds. Grrr....

Winchester HP HPs: Wow! First shot out of five tries rechambered the empty case! Finished the next four okay all but twice, stovepiped too.

Looked hard at the ejector itself since the extractor seems to be holding fresh and fired cases onto the breechface just fine. It has lateral clearance from the slide and can wobble a bit further to the left, which looks like it would then impact pretty far out on the radius of the fired case rim.

So I carefully bent it to rest more towards the center of the chamber. It now has paper-thin clearance with the slide. I'll see if the stovepipes clear up.

The short-stroking being repeated with Win HV ammo is troubling. No firing pin dent in the barrel face (firing pin remains properly fitted, no peening of the chamber wall inward at the extractor cut, and a bevel at the rear of the chamber appears to make peening that surface inward to grip fired cases impossible. Manual probing/checking shows no annular "ring" in the chamber. Fired cases show no reduced diameter from case body towards the rim. 

Fired cases DO show a larger diameter where they expand into that rear bevel between the chamber wall and the rear barrel face. It *appears* that the SK ammo AND the Winchester stuff expand more into that area, which makes me believe the brass is enough softer and/or the pressure is enough higher (or both) to make the fired cases have more friction on the extraction part of the cycle.

So I tried to polish the rear of the chamber with a brass patch loop, short rod, a patch with automotive polishing compound (the white stuff), and an ordinary VSR drill. Don't want the excitement of a high-speed Dremel treatment right now, which would require fabricating a rather long rod to hold the polishing device.

So, testing continues.

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by BE Mike on Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:27 pm

S&W model 41? Put a drop of oil on the top round in each magazine and call me in the morning! Laughing

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by jglenn21 on Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:06 pm

stove pipes..... .I'd replace the extractor and spring as they do get weak and bent a bit(spring).. I have tried the new voltquartsen extractor and really like it.. the hook is much closer to the rim(set back) and it has a rounded head.

My 41 loved it.. the only thing I did to it was have a friend drop a bead of weld on the extractor arm so I could tune the amount of extractor tension on the case( thanks Mr. Keefer for the idea)

know lots of folks who have moved to the voltquartsen extractor  with excellent results.

BTW if anyone is looking for new extractor springs, S&W just got some in as I received 2 from customer service just this week and have been waiting a while...


Last edited by jglenn21 on Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by urbanm84 on Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:17 pm

I switched to a VOLQUARTSEN extractor and have not had an issue in the last two years. Before that, it got new every thing,fluffed & buffed,trued, shaped etc. I was going to sell it off. that one part now gives me total confidence. All I shoot is SK or Wolf standard.
Mart

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by spursnguns on Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:01 pm

BE Mike wrote:S&W model 41? Put a drop of oil on the top round in each magazine and call me in the morning! Laughing
Hello all,

I know it's done by many but the forgoing is a band-aide and unsafe.  The procedure plays havoc with chamber pressures.  Better to find a mechanical fix.

Jim

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by Jack H on Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:26 pm

Seems to me there are two different issues here. 
1. Weak cycling ammo in the 41.
2. Extractor problems.

In my 41 the weak cycling SK and Wolf will not work the action even with the lightest (6# ?) recoil spring from Wolff's kit.  I believe the hammer spring is the reason.  CCI, Eley, and some others, no problem. 

The extractor has never given me a problem.

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by Windlogik on Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:47 pm

I bought two model 41s over the summer, popped up at the LGS for a good price. Both ran poorly, I was upset. I replaced the recoil springs, firing pin springs, extractor springs, extractor plungers, and extractors. I used the Volquartsen exact edge extractors. They have an improved profile and are EDM cut from tool steel. Both of the pistols now run perfectly. I am convinced that the stock sheet metal extractors in the 41s are a big part of the trouble with 41 alibis. The extractors I removed, I inspected with a magnifying glass. The critical edges of them were rounded over and very soft.

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by GrumpyOldMan on Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:40 am

Thanks for all the input.

The SK and a box of Wolf Match Target Extra I dug up last night have the same headstamp. Same results too: First two rounds don't eject then it appears to run fine with still the occasional stovepipe.  Round #1 holds the bolt open, round #2 slides back into the chamber. Both cock the hammer. Then it runs but less often now stovepipes. I'm pretty sure they are just not getting a good speed of bump against the adjusted ejector.

CCI now runs perfectly, both SV and Blazer.

No change with the Winchester HV, in fact it seems more consistent. First shot from the mag won't eject, stays in the chamber but the hammer is cocked. Never heard of HV ammo short-stroking any handgun absent chamber dings (not present here). Even at the end of testing with the barrel a little warm, I loaded a full 10 and the first shot cocked the hammer and left the case in the chamber.  Ejected that one and then ripped the next nine off with no problem.

Jack H: This first- and second-round of the day problem has me toying with the idea of relieving the camming/cocking surface on the bottom of the slide where it starts pushing the hammer back. Easing up on that part of resistance could "slick" up the resistance curve to sort of better inversely match the brass's "sticky curve" from the ammo's pressure curve.

Both CCI loads recoil a tad more smartly than the two Lapua-made loads.

I can't imagine how chambering the first round from the slide lock could make the case resist extraction more than the next round...

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Short side track

Post by Fire Escape on Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:58 am

Windlogik wrote:I bought two model 41s over the summer, popped up at the LGS for a good price. Both ran poorly, I was upset. I replaced the recoil springs, firing pin springs, extractor springs, extractor plungers, and extractors. I used the Volquartsen exact edge extractors. They have an improved profile and are EDM cut from tool steel. Both of the pistols now run perfectly. I am convinced that the stock sheet metal extractors in the 41s are a big part of the trouble with 41 alibis. The extractors I removed, I inspected with a magnifying glass. The critical edges of them were rounded over and very soft.


I am a new S&W 41 shooter having found a used one this summer. It ran well but now it is getting colder here and some issues are appearing. I found and ordered the extractor you mention but could you tell us (me) where you found the other parts? My got to Brownell's book did not have much for the 41 listed.
Thank you.

Bruce

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by desben on Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:34 am

FWIW... My Ruger will shoot pretty much anything without issues. I shoot SK Standard Plus at matches. It feels very weak in cycling, but it cycles. However, the first round of it always fails to eject in a clean gun. Always. (and I usually clean my gun before a match). Afterwards, I'll shoot hundreds more without issues. I attribute this to the oil on the casing. The first SK round in a "dirty" gun is usually fine... Great ammo.

For fun, I once tried a box of CCI Quiet (700fps). It fires, hits 2" low at 20 yards, and fails to cycle. I need to manually run the bolt on every round. It's no louder than a BB gun.

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by DavidR on Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:49 am

GrumpyOldMan wrote:Thanks for all the input.

The SK and a box of Wolf Match Target Extra I dug up last night have the same headstamp. Same results too: First two rounds don't eject then it appears to run fine with still the occasional stovepipe.  Round #1 holds the bolt open, round #2 slides back into the chamber. Both cock the hammer. Then it runs but less often now stovepipes. I'm pretty sure they are just not getting a good speed of bump against the adjusted ejector.

CCI now runs perfectly, both SV and Blazer.

No change with the Winchester HV, in fact it seems more consistent. First shot from the mag won't eject, stays in the chamber but the hammer is cocked. Never heard of HV ammo short-stroking any handgun absent chamber dings (not present here). Even at the end of testing with the barrel a little warm, I loaded a full 10 and the first shot cocked the hammer and left the case in the chamber.  Ejected that one and then ripped the next nine off with no problem.

Jack H: This first- and second-round of the day problem has me toying with the idea of relieving the camming/cocking surface on the bottom of the slide where it starts pushing the hammer back. Easing up on that part of resistance could "slick" up the resistance curve to sort of better inversely match the brass's "sticky curve" from the ammo's pressure curve.

Both CCI loads recoil a tad more smartly than the two Lapua-made loads.

I can't imagine how chambering the first round from the slide lock could make the case resist extraction more than the next round...
As to ejection and other issues many will go away once you get the right spring, but i would scrub the chamber good, do a drop test, bullets should drop in without having to be pushed in by the slide, if it wont chances are when fired and it swells it wont eject properly as to ammo...IMO your just wasting your time and a lot of ammo, all most every brand you listed ie 1070 or under and it sounds like nothing in the standard velocity will work a 100%, so shoot high velocity or change the recoil spring to a pound or two less, brownells sells them, many 41s function fine with this simple spring change.

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by GrumpyOldMan on Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:25 pm

DavidR:

I checked it AGAIN night before last and the chamber accepts and releases new rounds solely by Earth gravity impulse. No shaking needed.

Next, please read the thread.  HV from Winchester is now quite reliably unreliable. First round re-chambering the empty repeats with the Winchester HV with 5 prior rounds in a clean chamber, and again with 30 rounds "dirty". 

Plans are that I will start with the CCI in a cold clean chamber and confirm that it works even then. I don't have the tools to test if their brass is harder than the other stuff, but the longitudinal expansion marks on fired cases go further back towards the rim on the other stuff recently fired.

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by Windlogik on Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:51 pm

Fire Escape wrote:
Windlogik wrote:I bought two model 41s over the summer, popped up at the LGS for a good price. Both ran poorly, I was upset. I replaced the recoil springs, firing pin springs, extractor springs, extractor plungers, and extractors. I used the Volquartsen exact edge extractors. They have an improved profile and are EDM cut from tool steel. Both of the pistols now run perfectly. I am convinced that the stock sheet metal extractors in the 41s are a big part of the trouble with 41 alibis. The extractors I removed, I inspected with a magnifying glass. The critical edges of them were rounded over and very soft.


I am a new S&W 41 shooter having found a used one this summer. It ran well but now it is getting colder here and some issues are appearing. I found and ordered the extractor you mention but could you tell us (me) where you found the other parts? My got to Brownell's book did not have much for the 41 listed.
Thank you.

Bruce

Numrich had some stuff, Brownells had the other stuff. 41 parts are hard to track down. I bought the extractors themselves at Midway. I figured that replacing the firing pin spring was a good idea. Seems to me, that if the firing pin protrudes just a bit, the round may not slide onto the boltface properly causing a jam. The pistols are pretty old. One from the 70s and the other from the early 80s. So, new springs in the upper half seemed logical to me. Literally, these two pistols eat any SV ammo I've tried so far. I have had one or two alibis out of 2000 rounds which seems pretty good for a couple of 41s. I do put a drop of oil on the top round. I haven't been able to detect any pressure problems. I did clean the barrel real well and inspect the chambers with a cotton swab. I also made sure that gravity could seat rounds. If the chamber is good, in my mind, it means that the springs and extractors are worn, end of story.

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by BE Mike on Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:09 pm

spursnguns wrote:
BE Mike wrote:S&W model 41? Put a drop of oil on the top round in each magazine and call me in the morning! Laughing
Hello all,

I know it's done by many but the forgoing is a band-aide and unsafe.  The procedure plays havoc with chamber pressures.  Better to find a mechanical fix.

Jim
I've never owned a model 41, but have observed the drop of oil over many years by those who do. I never heard of it being as being unsafe, nor "playing havoc with chamber pressures". No doubt, getting a bullseye smith to to a reliability and accuracy job on the ole 41 would be a good approach, but I'd be interested in seeing some specifics on the problems you suggest by adding a drop of oil to the top round in each magazine.

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by r_zerr on Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:30 pm

GrumpyOldMan wrote:

I checked it AGAIN night before last and the chamber accepts and releases new rounds solely by Earth gravity impulse. No shaking needed.



Grumpy,

Fix this and most everything else will be easy to tune.  The extractor should extract, and hold until it hits the ejector. It does not need much force, but it needs to hold the case, otherwise the case falls out and does not get ejected.

-Ron

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by spursnguns on Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:02 pm

BE Mike wrote:
spursnguns wrote:
BE Mike wrote:S&W model 41? Put a drop of oil on the top round in each magazine and call me in the morning! Laughing
Hello all,

I know it's done by many but the forgoing is a band-aide and unsafe.  The procedure plays havoc with chamber pressures.  Better to find a mechanical fix.

Jim
I've never owned a model 41, but have observed the drop of oil over many years by those who do. I never heard of it being as being unsafe, nor "playing havoc with chamber pressures". No doubt, getting a bullseye smith to to a reliability and accuracy job on the ole 41 would be a good approach, but I'd be interested in seeing some specifics on the problems you suggest by adding a drop of oil to the top round in each magazine.
Hello B E Mike,

In a nutshell....

1:  Oil can act as an incompressible fluid in a gun's chamber and then reduce the available room for case expansion.  This can increase chamber pressures.
2:  Upon firing; oil reduces the friction between the expanding case of the fired round and the chamber walls.  The reduced friction increases the impact stress in the chamber and breach.

Jim

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by Virgil Kane on Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:36 pm

Did you replace the extractor plunger and extractor spring when you replaced the extractor? Did you check for burrs on the bolt where the extractor and all of it's parts contact the bolt?

To me it sounds like an extractor problem more than an ammo problem. Almost like the extractor is sometimes loosing the empty when it's ejecting, sometimes it pulls it half way out of the chamber stopping the round from the magazine from rising and chambering and pushes the empty back in the chamber. Other times it pulls it out far enough so the magazine round can push the empty out of the way and it stove-pipes because the empty never hit the ejector. And then when the stars align it runs fine just to confuse you.  Have you ever looked at the round in the magazine that's under this when it happens? Does it show signs of being scraped hard by the bolt or any other notable signs of impact?

I have followed this chart http://www.flat5.net/22LR_velocities.html and have found it to be accurate as far as functioning in my  M-41 with the factory recoil spring. Even use Remington SS for practice and it's accuracy and function are just like CCI SV in my pistol which runs perfect.


I'm not an expert, just some thoughts.


Virgil

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by BE Mike on Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:43 pm

spursnguns wrote:
BE Mike wrote:
spursnguns wrote:
BE Mike wrote:S&W model 41? Put a drop of oil on the top round in each magazine and call me in the morning! Laughing
Hello all,

I know it's done by many but the forgoing is a band-aide and unsafe.  The procedure plays havoc with chamber pressures.  Better to find a mechanical fix.

Jim
I've never owned a model 41, but have observed the drop of oil over many years by those who do. I never heard of it being as being unsafe, nor "playing havoc with chamber pressures". No doubt, getting a bullseye smith to to a reliability and accuracy job on the ole 41 would be a good approach, but I'd be interested in seeing some specifics on the problems you suggest by adding a drop of oil to the top round in each magazine.
Hello B E Mike,

In a nutshell....

1:  Oil can act as an incompressible fluid in a gun's chamber and then reduce the available room for case expansion.  This can increase chamber pressures.
2:  Upon firing; oil reduces the friction between the expanding case of the fired round and the chamber walls.  The reduced friction increases the impact stress in the chamber and breach.

Jim
I get that Jim, but I can't see where that is a safety hazard (no evidence of which I'm aware).

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by GrumpyOldMan on Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:10 pm

r_zerr wrote:
GrumpyOldMan wrote:

I checked it AGAIN night before last and the chamber accepts and releases new rounds solely by Earth gravity impulse. No shaking needed.



Grumpy,

Fix this and most everything else will be easy to tune.  The extractor should extract, and hold until it hits the ejector. It does not need much force, but it needs to hold the case, otherwise the case falls out and does not get ejected.

-Ron
Um, BTDT from last week.

The extractor even holds a live round all the way back to the ejector.

The magazines hold the next round low enough that only the top half-millimeter or so of the driving band of the bullet can be seen above the level of the frame. Yes, every magazine.

Spun a patch with polishing compound again this morning. Clean chamber, gun and ammo about 55-60°F, CCI SV runs from the first round.  Same conditions, SK smokestacked the first shot then ran fine. Haven't run the Winchester again yet.

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

Post by Windlogik on Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:32 pm

BE Mike wrote:
spursnguns wrote:
BE Mike wrote:
spursnguns wrote:
BE Mike wrote:S&W model 41? Put a drop of oil on the top round in each magazine and call me in the morning! Laughing
Hello all,

I know it's done by many but the forgoing is a band-aide and unsafe.  The procedure plays havoc with chamber pressures.  Better to find a mechanical fix.

Jim
I've never owned a model 41, but have observed the drop of oil over many years by those who do. I never heard of it being as being unsafe, nor "playing havoc with chamber pressures". No doubt, getting a bullseye smith to to a reliability and accuracy job on the ole 41 would be a good approach, but I'd be interested in seeing some specifics on the problems you suggest by adding a drop of oil to the top round in each magazine.
Hello B E Mike,

In a nutshell....

1:  Oil can act as an incompressible fluid in a gun's chamber and then reduce the available room for case expansion.  This can increase chamber pressures.
2:  Upon firing; oil reduces the friction between the expanding case of the fired round and the chamber walls.  The reduced friction increases the impact stress in the chamber and breach.

Jim
I get that Jim, but I can't see where that is a safety hazard (no evidence of which I'm aware).

Perhaps it could be an issue with high pressure 22 loads, maybe. But, with SV, like you, I don't see it as a big deal. I've never heard of someone loosing a finger or an eye due to a drop of oil on the top round to promote good function.

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Re: Velocities of .22 Ammo that Won't Cycle Your Pistol?

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