.22lr pistols debate

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.22lr pistols debate

Post by SW-52 on Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:11 am

what pistol you consider is the best pistol,not for high price range,for accuracy,trigger pounds,frame,quality,etc.

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by mspingeld on Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:46 am

You're going to get a lot of opinions! Not sure what you mean by "not for high price". Most good 22s will group well. Hammerli 208s and Feinwerkbau AW93 will probably get the most votes. Pardini SP22 will be up there. Many like 1911 frames with a quality conversion. If you're looking for a purchase recommendation, let us know your price range and we will be better able to guide you.

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by Jerry Keefer on Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:51 am

I have been involved in this game since the early 1960s.. I have owned, worked on, shot an incredible number of guns... If I were to purchase a .22 for the sole purpose of winning.. It would be a Pardini..Don Nygord, quite a few years ago,  convinced me to try one..That gun has been the winningest, most trouble free pistol, I have ever seen..I gave it to the woman I sponsor, and she has continued to use it to win numerous championships..It has only been fed Eley and RWS, and has never alibied..

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by mspingeld on Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:52 am

Jerry, Would you use the 32 conversion for center fire?

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by Jerry Keefer on Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:16 am

mspingeld wrote:Jerry, Would you use the 32 conversion for center fire?
I have zero experience with the 32 or 45 Pardinis..
So, I can't give you a qualified opinion.. Sorry

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by DavidR on Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:29 am

Does she shoot the pardini with the factory grips? they seem to have a very pronounced rake that to me feels uncomfortable for bullseye, what model is it?

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by Jerry Keefer on Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:39 am

DavidR wrote:Does she shoot the pardini with the factory grips? they seem to have a very pronounced rake that to me feels uncomfortable for bullseye, what model is it?
No she doesn't, and I did not when I was shooting.. Dick Horton grips cure the rake angle issue..I don't mind the grip angle, IF that is the only gun being shot, but transitioning next to the 1911 during the CF and 45 stages is a distraction. The muzzle was heavy for her, but I machined to an aluminum shroud for the gun, and that cured the problem.. Newer models have the aluminum shroud.

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by rich.tullo on Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:40 am

The all shoot an inch or under at 50 yards thus my suggestion is to try a number of pistols and find what you like and stick to it. I really liked my Benelli but after about 10K rounds it decided to alibi every 200 rounds. I tried an number of thing and nothing seemed to work. 

I tried an Xesse and it was great but my trigger guard broke 3 times once at sectionals once at the NJ State championship so that did not work for me but it was a spectacular gun as well. 

If the Pardinni is as good as the Benelli but is more reliable don't worry about the cost bite the bullet and go for it if you like the grip. I points like a revolver as opposed to a 1911. 

I have had the best success with my Chambers SSG (conversion) its expensive, but I like shooting the 1911 based platform. The Marvels, Nelsons, and Bob Marvel Advantage are great but the SSG with a dedicated lower is amazing smooth and consistent. 

I also think the model 41 is a little underrated, mine shoots great. I prefer to shoot mine with iron sights. 

If you are looking to get something inexpensive to start. I also think a Buckmark with a good trigger is a little underrated.  At sectionals I had a broken Xesse and borrowed a bickmark, I shot a 272 with if it and only shoot a 78 slow fire.

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by jmdavis on Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:02 pm

My experience is that the Pardini shoots as well or better than the Benelli and is more dependable. My Benelli shoots great but requires careful cleaning of the chamber before every 900 and cleaning the magazines at least every 300 rounds. I have found that to be true whether using CCI, SK or Eley Target. I had pretty good luck with Norma Tac Match, but I still cleaned the chamber every 300 rounds and cleaned the mags at the same time. 

Both the Benelli and the Pardini are less magazine sensitive than the High Standard, in my experience. The High Standard is a good pistol. It shoots as well as either of the European models. But it is magazine sensitive and the stock rear Iron sight on the Victor is just too narrow for me. Then again, I started this game at 50.

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by dhenry132 on Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:45 pm

Hammerli 280 for me in 32 S&W long and 22 LR. Second is my S&W M41. Either will shoot better than most

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by JIMPGOV on Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:39 pm

MY EXPERIENCE IS AS FOLLOWS. I'M ONLY AN EXPERT IN BULLSEYE. I DON'T PRACTICE IT MUCH AND ALMOST NEVER SHOOT 2700'S . JUST SHOOT CAMP PERRY. BUT I DO CARRY A HM & 3 MA CLASSIFICATIONS IN OTHER DISCIPLINES. I ALSO HAVE 4 DISTINGUISHED BADGES AND PRESIDENTS HUNDRED MANY TIMES IN 2 FIELDS.

I HAVE OWNED AND USED OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS THE FOLLOWING FOR BULLSEYE RIMFIRE IN ORDER OF USAGE.

1ST. HIGH STANDARD VICTOR;  HATED IT NEVER GOT THROUGH A MATCH WITHOUT A MALFUNCTION.

2ND. HAMMERLI 280; BIG BULKY TOO LIGHT DIDN'T LIKE THE PLASTICE FEEL TO IT.

3RD. PARDINI SP; SHOT WELL BUT DUE TO ARM AND SHOULDER INJURIES THE FORWARD RAKE WAS PAINFUL TO HOLD BY THE END OF THE MATCH.

4TH. MARVEL CONVERSION; ON ROCK RIVER FRAME. LOVE IT STILL SHOOT IT INDOOR.

5TH. HAMMERLI 208; I WAS CONVINCED BY A FRIEND THAT IT WAS THE CATS MEOW. IT WAS REALLY NICE BUT I  NEVER SHOT BETTER WITH IT THAN I DID WITH THE MARVEL.

6TH. MARVEL CONVERSION; YEP I WENT BACK TO THE MARVEL TO STAY. I HAVE A 5 INCH FOR INDOOR AND A 6 INCH FOR OUTDOOR. I ALSO HAVE A 6 INCH WITH IRON SIGHT FOR THE NEW 22 DISTINGUISHED.

I EVEN HAD A GREAT DEAL (REALLY  GREAT PRICED) ON AN AW93. I LIKED IT BUT I'M TIRED OF TRYING TO REINVENT THE WHEEL.

YMMV JIM P

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by SW-52 on Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:58 pm

i had a ruger MKIII,actually a High standard supermatic trophy military. in a future i want to modify the pistol to shoot 25 or 50 yards with red dot. in a competition on my shooting club,a veteran shooter won with high standard pistol build by clark on the mid of 70's with actual modification of red dot. the other shooters had feinwerkbau,41's and hammerli's. here in Puerto Rico, are very popular high standards,hammerli's an 41's; the elite shooters have feinwerkbau for olimpic games.

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by orpheoet on Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:09 pm

I've been shooting for about a year and a half and started with a Ruger MKIII that I immediately put a Volquartzen trigger group into. Great .22 to start with. I upgraded to a S&W M41 this summer and I have to say the trigger is in my opinion far superior. I certainly shoot it better than the Ruger but probably because of the trigger, not because it's "more accurate" In short, if you can find a used M41 that'd be my recommendation. Mines a mid 80's that I've put several thousand rounds through in not much time and it is yet to malfunction. CCI SV and Eley Club....

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by Jwhelan939 on Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:21 am

I've been using a Volquartsen Scorpion for the past 2 years. I love it. I also have a marvel unit 2. The unit 2 is accurate, but I do better with the Volqaurtsen. It has perfect balance and just feels like an extension of my arm.

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by BE Mike on Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:26 am

There are a lot of great .22 pistols out there. The top tier conversions seem to be Nelson and Marvel (in that order). I've shot a few different brands of .22 pistols. I have shot my best scores and my best target (a clean at 50 yards at the Frank J. Bikar Memorial Regional pistol matches at Canton McKinley) with my Hammerli 208s. The clean was my first 10 shots of the match. Besides the excellent accuracy and reliability, I think it is the 2 stage trigger that I really like. It took a little while to get used to the 2 stage trigger, but once I transitioned from the Hi Standard single stage trigger, I really excelled with it. I ventured into the 880's a couple of times and fairly regularly shot in the high 860's to low 870's with the 208s (I'm an old man and don't shoot that well any longer). Compared to the really good shooters, that isn't top shooting, but I'm just demonstrating my personal success with the 2 stage trigger. Everyone is different and there is more than one way to skin a cat. Have fun in your search.

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by bobthenailer on Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:51 pm

After 40 years of BE shooting under my belt , my best scores are with any of my 4 HS pistols ! I also shoot a S&W 41, Browning Buckmark 5.5 target and a Kimber 22 conversion on a SA 45 loaded frame all with red dot sights  .
 I can regulary shoot 290+ scores with them all .
 last years winter indoor 50' league netted me a 295.95 avg with the HS

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by Jerry Keefer on Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:08 pm

High Standards have true match barrels, with excellent chambers, when compared to any other American made .22 Pistol..including the 41.. I have high regard for the 41, but only after a barrel change.
My lady shooter's best outdoor with the Pardini, is 297..

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by SW-52 on Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:28 pm

Jerry Keefer wrote:High Standards have true match barrels, with excellent chambers, when compared to any other American made .22 Pistol..including the 41.. I have high regard for the 41, but only after a barrel change.
My lady shooter's best outdoor with the Pardini, is 297..
Jerry,the LSP Barrels are the same quality of originals High standard barrels?

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by rreid on Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:53 pm

Xesse /Trailside are decent pistols for the money. I'm not sure about the broken trigger guards. I've never had a problem with mine. Runs on cheap ammo and will shoot high master scores if you do your part.

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by KelseyECS on Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:21 pm

Nobody has mentioned the Walther GSP.  I have one in 22LR and 32S&WL and they are both excellent in terms of trigger and reliability.  It holds very well for me (I have a Burris 2x scope that I mounted to make it a bit muzzle heavy.  I especially like having no externally moving slide (that bothers me for some reason).

I consider the original GSP to be better than the new GSP Expert or the Hammerli 280 (both of which I have test fired).  As much as I like my Victor, the GSP is much better.  The Victor is an upgrade from my previous two 22's, a S&W 41 and a Ruger.

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by Jerry Keefer on Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:19 am

SW-52 wrote:
Jerry Keefer wrote:High Standards have true match barrels, with excellent chambers, when compared to any other American made .22 Pistol..including the 41.. I have high regard for the 41, but only after a barrel change.
My lady shooter's best outdoor with the Pardini, is 297..
Jerry,the LSP Barrels are the same quality of originals High standard barrels?

The few LSP barrels I have seen where fine..

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by Keyholed on Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:50 pm

It's like picking shoes. From at least the indoor perspective, very few of us are so good that tiny gains in accuracy are actually useful. The difference in mechanical accuracy between a quality entry-level blowback .22 and an expensive match gun just aren't noticeable. What is noticeable is ergonomics and trigger (especially expensive adjustable-every-way uncompromised match triggers), but even that has its limitations. They're not going to help you master trigger control, grip, follow-through, and stance.

Therefore, it's all about picking the most reliable pistol in your price range, that you have confidence in. I can tell you that the Ruger/22A/Buckmark is the best gun for a novice, but that doesn't matter if a shooter picks it up and, like a pair of shoes, finds it doesn't fit. Same thing on up in the price ranges. The M41's a great gun, unless you pick it up and don't like it.

Side note, in learning how to shoot the 1911 .22 in bullseye, it's forced me to shoot a lot better. The Ruger was a little easier to shoot, but it let me get away with a lot of bad shots. The 1911, to my hand, brutally punishes every little mistake I make, but rewards me with much better scores.

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by BE Mike on Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:56 pm

bobthenailer wrote:After 40 years of BE shooting under my belt , my best scores are with any of my 4 HS pistols ! I also shoot a S&W 41, Browning Buckmark 5.5 target and a Kimber 22 conversion on a SA 45 loaded frame all with red dot sights  .
 I can regulary shoot 290+ scores with them all .
 last years winter indoor 50' league netted me a 295.95 avg with the HS
That's exceptional shooting. I have never heard of the Kimber conversion being accurate enough for outdoor 2700's. I would be interested if it could hold a decent group at the long line.

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by Jerry Keefer on Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:40 pm

I have said this before, " The .22 cartridge is an inherently accurate round". Therefore, mediocre firearm/ammo combinations are considered satisfactory by nearly everyone, with the exception of the most discriminating shooters.. Master and High master demand guns that shoot sub X ring.. Such a gun makes up for many human errors at the 50 yard line.. Even a tyro will score slightly better with a .750 inch as opposed to a 2 inch gun.., and there are many 2 inch .22s out there. The tight grouping gun, will always be inside the call.. it's basic mathematics..Are you satisfied with being a participant, or do you want to be a competitor..?? The answer to that will determine the quality of the .22 you should own..

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

Post by CrankyThunder on Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:11 pm

I have some thoughts on this..........

If you get Gil Hebard's a pistol shooters treasury, they have a article in there where they took all the competitive 22 handguns and did an accuracy test with them.  At that time, they included the Ruger, the Hammerli, the High Standards, the SW 41, and a Colt or two.  Using the ransom rest, they discovered that all the guns delivered x ring accuracy and concluded that these guns had all the inherent accuracy required and that one gun was not significantly more accurate then another.  Oh there was a winner but the difference was immaterial.  While I personally have not done accuracy testing on a lot of 22 handguns, the ones that I have done so have mirrored Mr. Hebard's findings.

With that being said, the fit, weight, reliability, trigger, and balance of a particular gun should be the most important aspects for a individual shooter.  If the gun is not reliable such that you have an alibi every thousand rounds or so, that is not a good gun to get. 

Personally, I like the pardini with dick horton 1911 rake angle grips.  I like the weight of the gun, I like the balance, the trigger is phenominal, and I have yet to experience an alibi with ammo that the gun likes.   It likes a lot of ammos but Eley Sport and Eley Target are not ammo that it likes (short stroke and fails to pick up next round when the weather is cold). 

I have shot a number of firearms, Hammerli's, FWB's, Walthers, Benelli's, Pardini's, SW 41, High Standards, Ruger's, and Buckmarks and can honestly say that I would be satisfied with any one of them.  I selected the pardini because it felt perfect for me, the trigger, and also the good support from Pardini USA.  If I wanted a lighter gun, I would seriously consider the Walther SSM or Walther SSP.  My previous gun was a Baikal IZH 35M which I really liked a lot but started giving me alibi's which hurt my score. 

Sincerely,
Cranky

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Re: .22lr pistols debate

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