Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

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Camp Perry or Cardinal Center for future nationals

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Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by DirComp on Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:05 pm

First topic message reminder :

Good morning all.  I was on this site this morning and read through the questions being asked about the Cardinal Center.  I thought that I would share some things with you and generate some discussion.

Mark Johnson, the COO of CMP, has advised that he will go to his Board of Directors and ask for funding to install electronic targets at Camp Perry that will be suitable to fire High Power, Smallbore, and Pistol.  If approved, the target date for being up and running is for the start of the National Matches in 2017.  The NRA will pay a lease fee to CMP for use of these targets.

I was recently contacted by a representative of the Cardinal Center and asked to commit to going there in 2017.  Cardinal Center will probably use turning targets and paper, just like what we use at Camp Perry now.  I did not commit but left the door open.  I cannot commit to going to a range that currently does not exist.  The target date for the start of the Cardinal Center is the start of the National Matches in 2017.

So now we might be faced with a choice; 1) stay at Camp Perry and shoot on electronic targets; 2) move to Cardinal Center and shoot on turning targets.

Everyone who has shot the National Matches knows what Camp Perry is like so I won't dwell on that.  At Cardinal Center there would be some major changes.  Not in the way the events are fired but in the way you live.  The cabins onsite would likely be taken up by the NRA to house staff, leaving RVs and hotels as the other housing options.  If you elect NOT to rent/bring an RV, hotels become important.  The nearest exit with hotels is 9 miles away and the next exit with hotels is 19 miles away.  I don't consider these distances to be objectionable but you might based on what you are used to.  At Bianchi Cup competitors drive 15 miles one way to the range each day and don't complain about it but this is a major change from the way things work at Camp Perry.  It won't be quite so easy to run back to your room after shooting a morning 900 and then return for the team matches that afternoon.  There is one, and only one, restaurant on site but plenty near the hotels.

The Cardinal Center is a terrific place but will entail some changes by everyone, NRA and competitors, alike.

Kick around the pros and cons and let me know what you think.

Dennis Willing

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by KevinB on Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:11 pm

The real question seems to moot.  CMP is financially vested in E targets as a source of income as their US Distributor.  They are not asking for input, they don't want it.  They will force e targets upon us whether we complain or not.

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Wobbley on Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:24 pm

Denny:  If the decision is made to remain at Perry, can the conditions depicted in the picture and the resulting mud be addressed?  A unitized bench and duckboards come to mind.  But the depicted conditions are not acceptable for national matches.
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by sixftunda on Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:34 pm

This bears repeating:


The CMP estimates 6.5 million just for E-targets.


Cardinal can build 400 nice dry firing points from scratch with covered firing points and a turning target system for LESS. 


In fact anyone could build 400 nice firing points for less than 6.5 million.
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Wobbley on Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:52 pm

I think it also bears repeating, the CMP is buying e targets for rifle.  They will be used also for pistol.  The NRA will rent them for their matches.
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by sixftunda on Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:10 pm

Wobbley wrote:I think it also bears repeating, the CMP is buying e targets for rifle.  They will be used also for pistol.  The NRA will rent them for their matches.

Frankly they can rent them out for paper airplane contests for all I care. 

We will still be shooting nationals at one of the worst ranges in the country. The vendors we love to visit and shop at will continue to use the same crappy buildings. 

The money can be better spent. I'm not against electronic targets. I just believe that right now we need a better venue and the technology will get better and cheaper. The fiasco at Talladega proves that point in my mind.
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Doug Hall on Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:18 am

These are some good points being raised.

I think the CMP should stop and think before the board approves the money for electronic targets for pistol at Perry. There is no way I can see them using the same target for rifle as they do for pistol. Heights, width, and location on the range etc. Therefore pistol is an additional cost for one or 2 days of CMP competition. That means the NRA fair portion is twice of that. 4 million for a once a year event. Why not embrace a cheaper and more useful location that has a track record of improving every sport they add.

What woul be their issue moving to Catdinal and not spending a dime? The stores fronts at Cardinal could easily accomodate CMP sales during pistol week. In fact it would reach a new market including the shotgunners.

Put on paper what the CMP and NRA would need guarantees for and when, make it contractual with a $$ penalty or some kind of trust to guarantee a lease etc. Just saying "I can't commit if the range isn't built right now" gives the appearance of a political excuse. They are not the OHNG, they are not limited to which and how many weeks the range is available for. They have the ability expand, adapt, and address the shooters needs.

Heck, the CMP can probably invest in cardinal to give them a voice if that were an issue.

What does Cardinal say is their timeline? What are they willing to commit to? What facilities additions are they considering? Action pistol, indoor, Air pistol / rifle, small bore, international etc.? I still fell the shooters don't have the full picture here yet.

On a scary note,
One bad Govenor and Perry will be closed for political reasons. Look what they did at Sparta. Executive action could become a reality. What then, Perry has a long history but doesn't meen it is guaranteed.

I want to shoot HP rifle at Nationals someday too. Perry with electronic targets may be OK, for Pistol.....completely different story.

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Jerry Keefer on Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:45 am

Yes..Good point. PPC shooters remember I am sure, the Beltsville Regionals. Biggest event next to the Nationals on the East coast.
Permanetly shut down over a political incident involving the Branch Dividian.That was the beginning of the PPC decline.
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Ghillieman on Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:23 am

DirComp wrote:No moves will be made to start the process to leave Camp Perry without a thorough understanding of what it all entails.  Once gone, we likely cannot come back.  The National Guard will lose that portion of the money they get to support the National Matches.  According to them, once they lose it, they won't get it back.  In addition, a political firestorm will occur, both within the state and federally, once such a move is broached.  I do not wish to enter into that fray unless I'm sure that I'm doing the right thing for the right reasons.

Denny
Reading this makes it all the more irritating that after 100 years of matches there is no dedicated range for bullseye pistol at the location that holds the National Championship. The ONG has an interest in keeping their funding they should be pressured to meet the NRA and CMP to build a dedicated range to keep the Championships there. Petrarca range could be modified to become a really descent bullseye pistol range. Pull Camp Perry up on a satallite map and you will see there are many options for a location to build a premier, leading example of a bullseye range. It can be done, there is no reason it shouldn't be done, and if ONG is unwilling to do it then the NRA should find an organization that will.
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by precision on Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:08 am

You guys are amazing.....

1.) Where was the "political firestorm" in Ohio when the Smallbore matches were exorcised to Indiana two years ago?

2.) If you haven't shot on electronic targets, then your opinions are just based on speculation. They are simply superior in all regards and only getting better. 

3.) 6.5 million dollars? Really? I would like to hear some confirmation of that number before accepting it as reality. Besides, the real issue is how does that affect the cost of putting on a match. If the NRA says they cannot afford to have pistol matches at Camp Perry with electronic targets, how can they afford to have Mid- and Long-Range rifle matches there? This just doesn't pass the smell test. 

4.) There is no transparency with regard to NRA management and their decision making. Any "information" put out needs to be questioned with a very critical eye. Reading through these posts, only Jerry Keefer and someone named Schaumannk are on the right track.

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by 9146gt on Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:44 am

This NRA vs CMP remindes me so much of the CART vs IRL fued in the 90's. Decisions on both sides were made with the intent being what can we do to hurt the other the most instead of promoting the sport.

Tom

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by DirComp on Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:56 am

OK, let's look at "precision's" post above.

When I met with CMP and OHNG at Camp Perry, CMP presented a complete construction plan with the price of $6.5 million.  Most of that cost involves a system for High Power Rifle.  Here is where most of that cost resides.

Fiber optic cable.  Miles of it.  Let's look at Viale Range.  Fiber Optic cable will have to be run from the target pits back to the 1000 yard firing line, then on to the Stat Office.  In addition, perpendicular lines will have to be run at each High Power shooting distance, back to the main fiber optic cable.  This will include across the pits, plus 200, 300, 500, 600, 800, 900, and 1000 yard lines.  This cable will have to span the entire width of the range, about 135 targets on 8' centers.  Now do the same for Rodriguez Range, only you have shorter distances, pits to the 600 yard firing line with cross cables at 200, 300, 500, and 600, spanning 95 targets horizontally.

That's a lot of cable.

But the $6.5 million figure is right in line with what I expected the system to cost if the NRA built it.  The system is all inclusive for Pistol, Smallbore, and High Power.

No one said anywhere that the NRA cannot afford to host pistol and/or rifle events at Camp Perry.  Quite the contrary.  We host them now and can continue doing so.  Turning targets or electronic targets, it doesn't matter.

The lease fee for CMP will come from the savings derived from the reduced personnel required to run the matches at Camp Perry.  It will probably be a wash in the end. 

The "political firestorm" over moving Smallbore continues.  In fact, the issue of electronic targets might have been designed to bring Smallbore back to Camp Perry after my boss stated that it wouldn't be practical to have Smallbore competitors shoot on anything but the best, and that "best" is electronic targets.  So if the electronic targets are installed, Smallbore will likely return to Camp Perry.  This has muffled a lot of the "firestorm".

Electronic rifle targets and pistol targets are quite different in size.  Rifle targets are 6' square while pistol targets are about 2' square.  They cannot accommodate both sports easily.  However, pistol targets can accommodate Smallbore quite easily.  Software programming will have to be done for this but that's really a minor issue.

Both CMP's electronic targets and Cardinal's turning targets are scheduled to be available for the National Matches in 2017.

Now here is the kicker.  By July of 2016, at Camp Perry, I will need to have available a projected calendar for the National Matches in 2017.  This year I had to hold out until October, until the Smallbore Committee made their decision, to produce that calendar and every week I was fielding emails about the 2016 schedule. 

So I need to make plans for 2017 and make that decision before July 2016.

Now, once again, looking to the future.

1) Electronic targets are coming to Camp Perry in 2017.
2) If you do not wish to shoot on electronic targets then we must move.
3) Cardinal Center is currently the only facility that will be large enough to accommodate the National Pistol Championships.
4) Cardinal Center will have turning targets.

Regardless of all other factors, questions, or problems, the above is as solid as I can make it.  This could change if the CMP Board of Directors doesn't authorize the expenditure of funds for the targets.

I have just been accused of not being transparent, all the while I thought I was being as transparent as possible.  I don't know what you think that I am hiding but I can assure you that I'm not hiding anything.  Please quit trying to read something into everything I say.  I'm trying to make this as simple as I can.

As for a dedicated Pistol Range, here is where money is an issue.  CMP spent over $20 million on Talladega.  The NRA can't afford that.  Twice in 2015 I was presented with property for sale that the NRA could use as an "East Coast Whittington Center"; one in Maryland and one in Georgia.  In each case the asking price was about $5 million.  In both cases I was informed that the NRA could not afford it.  I don't see the NRA owning a dedicated range in the near future.

While I'm trying to be forthright with you, it is becoming difficult.  Basically, I'm being called a liar and you are making my efforts to try to work with you trying at best.  I didn't make any recommendations in any post, but did express my affinity toward electronic targets.  I simply asked for your opinions on a potential move.  I don't know how this got to be controversial. 

Denny

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by DirComp on Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:02 pm

Wobbley,

OHNG will be completing the new drainage system for the ranges.  Hopefully, that will help.  It was only partially complete for the 2015 championships so things weren't as we had hoped.

Denny

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by DavidR on Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:40 pm

Dennis I appreciate you including us in your information gathering and I think the majority of our members do too.
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by precision on Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:51 pm

In addition, a political firestorm will occur, both within the state and federally, once such a move is broached. 

1.) These are your words from a prior posting and suggest something very different. If there was a firestorm within the state and federally about losing the smallbore matches, I sure would like to know about it. There was definitely a negative reaction from the smallbore community, but that is something quite different than what you implied.

2.) No one has called you a liar. Where did you read that? 

3.) You are thin-skinned and tend to over-react whenever you are challenged. You are not only the Director of NRA Competitions, but you voluntarily join/start a discussion and present your ideas stating you seek feedback. When you don't like the feedback, you react quite negatively. you should be able to hear all opinions and react professionally. This is now an established pattern as evidenced in prior similar scenarios in High Power and Smallbore forums. 

4.) There was no transparency regarding the decision process and the information given (and not given) regarding the relocation of smallbore to Indiana. 

5.) If there can't be a completely open and honest conversation about these issues, why even start them in the first place?

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by brassmaster on Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:58 pm

The most potentially disheartening outcome of moving the National Championships is the loss of CMP National Matches at the same venue because it is obvious that CMP would not be interested or receptive to moving to the Cardinal Range. Their Northern Operations are all housed at Camp Perry and have been for decades.
Secondly, with the enormous expense involved in Cardinal developing a range large enough to accommodate the National Championships, it would not come without a long-term agreement, with stated costs. What happens if a lot of competitors decide not to attend Cardinal? Cardinal will still be holding out their hand for their established payment amount no matter if NRA entry fees and other sources generated by the National Championship event come up short? Third, after 30+/- years of complaining about the hut housing, the ONG obviously spent hundreds of thousands of dollars demolishing the old huts and modular units and building first class huts. Almost certainly, the ONG were given assurances that the National Championships would continue at Camp Perry. The OHG and the State of Ohio have a reasonable expectation to recoup their cost through renting the huts to competitors. If the National Championships are moved to Cardinal, where will the return on investment come from---a one day CMP National Match?
Fourth, it would be logical to assume that local businesses, i.e., hotels, motels, rental property, convenience stores, restaurants, gas stations, grocery stores, tourist traps, etc., were encouraged to ramp-up by the Port Clinton and Oak Harbor C of C. Potentially, the loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars generated by the annual National Championships would be lost along with the supporting jobs created. 
However, to reiterate, it escapes this writer how, after decades and decades, the NRA could even consider severing their ties with the CMP? To believe that a majority of competitors would participate in two separate championships at two different locations is shortsighted at best.
The only excuse for this proposed fiasco is the position identified in the 60s by the Kennedy family (paraphrased): "it's our football and you will play by our rules."
Without a significant number of competitors, rifle and pistol at both the National Championships and National Matches, neither may not survive. Before scraping 100+ years of history, tradition and working together, please, please, both sides, NRA & CMP make extra efforts to head-off this potential disaster to the sport we hold dear. Contrary to some posters saying that the move to Cardinal would improve the sport, this writer sees the separation of the National Matches and the National Championships as a potential disaster to our sport.
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by knightimac on Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:30 pm


Maybe NRA and CMP can talk this over with input from shooters reps.  Compromise seems to be a lost art in the USA today.  In both politics and sports.

A lawyer whom I had been dealing with once told me something like "You know it's a good compromise when nobody is completely happy with the outcome. "

In compromising we all have to give something up to come to an agreement for the overall betterment of all parties involved.
Maybe CMP could compromise on e-targets and NRA could help support with $$$$ for NEW turning target system at Perry.

Finally how about better range conditions such as drainage and covered firing points?

If CMP and NRA break, I'm supporting move to Cardinal based on range conditions and turning targets.

I've gotten over my infatuation with e-targets.
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Danehogle on Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:31 pm

Brass master, as of yet, we do not know what the CMP is going to do. It is still up in the air and spending Big money on pistol E- targets when most seem not to want them is not a good idea.
As to the history and traditions, going to e-targets will change those as well. It seems that you have forgotten the personal interaction of the shooters as they go down range to score. I have shot on the CMP's e- targets at the air pistol range and as yet I can not tell you the names of any people that I have met there while shooting there.
They don't lend to " meeting your fellow competitors".

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by dstates on Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:39 pm

Denny,

Thank you for reaching out to this forum to discuss the future of the National Championships.  Personally I'm torn.  I not that worried about the tradition of Camp Perry and I think electronic targets have a lot of potential (especially in time savings). 

However, at my first trip to Camp Perry this year I saw how poor the conditions can be. It would be worth moving to Cardinal for the better conditions.  To see half of the competitors shooting with their feet in standing water and then sinking into 4 inches of muck walking to the targets it doesn't make you feel like you are at the National Championships.  The targets don't bother me too much one way or another.  If the shooting conditions stay the same, Perry doesn't sound that attractive (granted you wouldn't have to walk to the targets to score them).

With all that said.... If it was possible to include a covered concrete firing line at the same time as the $6.5M target install I'd say Camp Perry all the way in order to keep CMP and NRA matches in the same place.  Can the ONG, CMP and NRA come together to make something like that work?

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Jack H on Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:49 pm

How does an e-target handle crossfires?  In detail please.

Is the electronic record final?  Can you protest the target, or confirm it's calibration?
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by dronning on Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:57 pm

Brassmaster
Only pistol and smallbore would be moving to Cardinal (if they move), That still leaves 3 weeks of NRA/CMP rifle competition at Perry, plus 5 days of the new CMP "to be announced event" (Aug 10-14), I'd guess a CMP games type match.

You are assuming CMP would keep the EIC matches at Camp Perry as long as we are speculating why wouldn't the CMP decide to let the NRA run their pistol matches at Cardinal (if that's where they end up) just like they currently do at Camp Perry?  It would save them from having to set up eTargets for pistol at Perry.

I have several shooting buddies that have never been to Perry that have said point blank "who wants to shoot in the mud" .  Personally I think it's fun but there are many who won't go to Perry because of the conditions.

So if both NRA and CMP pistol moved to Cardinal all we lose is the nostalgia.  If it stays at Perry it sounds like the odds are high we will be shooting on eTargets and our sport is forever changed.

- Dave
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by knightimac on Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:00 pm

BTW, I thank you Denny for your service to our sport.

I know it's tough hearing some of our points of view BUT I appreciate what you are doing here.

You are doing what a good leader must.  Keep it up
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Doug Hall on Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:20 pm

You are making huge assumptions,
1) You assume "Cardinal will not invest if the NRA does not commit", this is not true from what we have heard. They are building a large range, I would ask them what their intentions are before making that leap.

2) You assume CMP would not move pistol. We have not heard or had any visibility to their intentions. They may not want to but if they opened their minds to the options they may embrace it. Let's have that open discussion with the CMP too. I give Dennis credit for opening himself for the discussion.

3) Are you assuming all CMP events would exit Perry? The CMP rifle would still justify the huts and support the surrounding community. The 2 days of CMP pistol would not be a blip on their radar. Moving to a dedicated pistol range that the CMP could leverage for multiple SAFS and EIC matches throuout the year might outweigh the assumed losses.

4) Have the CMP bring their computer targets to Cardinal for EIC matches, they could be set up on Cardinals proposed Action pistol ranges for shooters to practice on before the EIC match, bring them out for EIC Sunday, use the turning targets for SAFS and backup to the electronic. Plus plus.

Let's be creative and explore all the possibilities and opportunities and get past the assumptions. I also play the role of devils advocate in these discussions because that brings out good discussions and solutions.

Brassmaster, these are important points that need discussed. We need to keep a list of these.

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by SteveT on Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:07 pm

Dennis Thank you for wading into these dangerous waters.
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Be a Volunteer

Post by Richard Ashmore on Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:17 pm

KenO wrote: I see golf carts all over with staff sitting in them, hard to believe they are all necessary.

  Come as a volunteer lol!

  Each range takes about twenty (20) volunteers to run.  So three active ranges, sixty (60) volunteers.  I don't know how many people there are that you don't see on the ranges, but Cardinal has, I think twenty-nine (29) cabins, so those will be filled pretty quickly.


Last edited by Richard Ashmore on Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarity)
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ISSF Tournament Officials...

Post by Richard Ashmore on Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:38 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:James Chapman wrote: ".. I watch many scoring challenges in International rapid fire events..."

.....yeah, and it's some stiffs who can't shoot looking at some receipt tape that just recorded whatever the sensors recorded.
That's not the same confirmation that we get from examining the real paper target.
...go through a fairly detailed training and qualification program.  What is very interesting to me is that a person may not simultaneously have a judges license and be a competitor.  "If the holder of a judge’s license wishes to participate as an athlete, he must return the license to the ISSF Headquarters for cancellation."
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

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