22 hv vs sv

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22 hv vs sv

Post by jbcustomleather on Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:54 pm

Anyone have any experience using hi velocity ammo as opposed to standard velocity as far as doing any damage to the frame on their gun. Read and hear some do not advocate the hi velocity in the Victor or similar pistols. Some however say no problem. Just curious. Everyone has an opinion. Most of the stuff(imported) available now is hv. SV little harder to come by.

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by Jack H on Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:33 pm

The High Standard Victor made in Connecticut, and it's cousins Trophy, Sport King, et al, WILL eventually break the frame rail at the slide stop cutout if you do use HV ammo and/or do not maintain a full strength recoil spring.

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by jbcustomleather on Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:57 pm

Thanks Jack, I have a full length spring as far as I know. I have tried to shoot sv in gun and it jams periodically with sv, but not with the hv. Been shooting Armscor and CCI target, and Federal Target. Advertised at 1200 fps. I know sv is 1135 fps supposedly.
Nice gun, hate to damage it.

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by Jack H on Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:16 pm

If you are unsure of the recoil spring age and condition, replace it with a Wolff 6 pound, or 5.5 pound (5.5 is original rating)  I use 6 pound always.

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by jbcustomleather on Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:04 pm

Thanks again for info. I can tell you it is extremely hard to rack slide when hammer down on a fired round.

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by JIMPGOV on Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:37 pm

JACK B.  SV IS 1085 FOR THE MOST PART. SEND ME AN EMAIL AND I'LL WALK YOU THRU IT. STRANGE TO SEE YOU ON THIS SITE. JIM P

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by rich.tullo on Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:35 pm

Federal in the White box is warm not hot, I dont think its 1200fps, ditto with the spring idea.

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by jbcustomleather on Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:56 pm

Thanks Rich, prob just scrounge up some sv and let it go at that. SV this area sort of hard to come by, but starting to show up more. This gun hasn't been shot that much, was a safe queen until I started shooting BE.

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by jwax on Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:29 pm

High Standards are magazine-sensitive. They must be tuned for the gun/ammo combination. Tuning the lips of a HS magazine is an art. Buy the tool. Leave the HV ammo for your other guns, not High Standards! SV only!
Cheers!
John

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by Tim:H11 on Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:50 pm

I found this to be an interesting and enlightening thread. I'm curious now though about other .22LR Rimfire pistols as well. Say the Ruger MK series or the Smith and Weson Model 41, or even a Colt Woodsman Match Target. Can they be sensitive to ammunition loaded to velocities higher than that of "standard velocity" in a way that will eventually cause damage or exsesive wear to parts such as the frame and or slide? Don't mean to high jack the topic, sorry!

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by jglenn21 on Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:25 pm

seen cracked slides on the 41s( right at the bolt ).. I've only run SV ammo in my 72.. no problems

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by GrumpyOldMan on Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:44 pm

jglenn21 wrote:seen cracked slides on the 41s( right at the bolt ).. I've only run SV ammo in my 72.. no problems
Had shot #3 in SF smokestack on me with CCI SV, fouled chamber, & about 55° F last time out. This is after a short saga of tweaking extractor and its spring and confirming smooth chamber and all that. Simply gave up on some lighter "SV" rifle match ammo. Sticking with LGS stocks for now, as supply remains erratic and I just haven't settled on .22 RF ammo to buy a big bunch of yet...

But I'm wondering if some of this trouble and spring futzing and frame problems with HS and slide/bolt problems with S&W 41s would just go away with some nice recoil buffers and selected accurate HV ammo. Or just lighter springs with a buffer...

At this stage of what should be pretty mature technologies, these problems should be GONE by now. Really, we have auto engines that can run E-85 and regular Petrol after all! I suspect that just tweaking the metals alloys and heat treatments alone might do it.* They're .22s!




*I had a bit of an experience with what happens when metal and heat treat are WRONG...the kicker on that steel frame 9mm was when the takedown lever's handle--a NON-stressed part--just snapped off. The importer's VP eventually told me that batch of parts was excessively surface hardened. Result was brittleness, and the cross-sections were not thick enough to benefit from a softer core hardness like M1 Garand receivers or bolts.

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:02 am

Colt's expert folks say that other than the 1st generation they are HV safe, which if I read right is after 1933, and I think those can be modified to be HV safe.  I didn't even know SV existed until I started in Precison pistol and shot HV in several Woodmans since I was a kid along with my entire family and nobody has had an issue.   I can't say "for sure" that they are HV safe since my experience is limited to 5 or 6 pistols.  Maybe I was lucky or just didn't shoot them enough, but I put cartons through my Huntsman and none of us ever changed recoil springs...lol.

Part of me wants to take my Match Target, re-line the barrel, get a trigger job and replace the sight and use it....but the last trip to the gun doctor was brutal and getting parts is tough, and expensive when the gunsmith has to machine his own.  Regardless, how amazing is it to use one of these at a match!



http://www.colt22.com/faq.html

http://www.leeroysramblings.com/colt_woodsman_22.html

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by jglenn21 on Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:08 am

beautiful pistol

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:23 am

Thanks!

Stock photo, but the one I was given is in better condition.  I used this for my first BE pistol and thanks to some forum members I was able to get some extra magazines.  I just wish the accuracy matched the cosmetics...lol.  Mine needs a new barrel liner, the rear sight is repaired to keep it original, but really needs replaced as it doesn't have positive clicks and the trigger is horrible and the grips are for those with small hands, but I can get some aftermarket grips still.  I'm not sure how a collector managed to not shoot it but still break the rear sight Sad The trigger is wild, you would almost think its on safe until it goes bang and its heavier than my other Woodsman/Huntsman pistols, except for my first generation 30s model.  The positive, is that its so dang heavy that RF/TF are a blast to shoot.   Unfortunately, trying to find a gunsmith to fix it has been challenging to say the least.  I would need someone who wants to do a science experiment and be interested to see if you can accurize a Match Target to the level of a High Standard.  Someday when I get someone to fix it up I'll start using it again in the EIC matches just for the "cool" factor Very Happy 
Last time I had it out, the old timers scolded me for using a collectors item to shoot league matches.... lol!



Last edited by JayhawkNavy02 on Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:32 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by Jerry Keefer on Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:31 am

Tim:H11 wrote:I found this to be an interesting and enlightening thread. I'm curious now though about other .22LR Rimfire pistols as well. Say the Ruger MK series or the Smith and Weson Model 41, or even a Colt Woodsman Match Target. Can they be sensitive to ammunition loaded to velocities higher than that of "standard velocity" in a way that will eventually cause damage or exsesive wear to parts such as the frame and or slide? Don't mean to high jack the topic, sorry!
A cracked S&W 41 slide and a high round count High Standard frame..





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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by Tim:H11 on Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:08 pm

WOW! I shoot Wolf Match Target ammunition. It's a 40 grain lead round nose. Pretty slippery greasy stuff but my S&W M41 loves it. I had to put a seven pound variable spring in the gun to get it to run right though. And even then it wasn't working quite right so I snipped a coil or less and it ran pretty good after that. Cases kept getting caught and crunched in the ejection port. Sometimes wouldn't extract well either. A new extractor was fitted and tuned also. Haven't had a problem since. Once in a blue moon I get a jam but it's rare.

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by 1joel1 on Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:57 am

Also, just for FYI, the AW93 frame has been known to crack with HV ammo. Mine has only seen SV and has never failed once. HV accuracy is suspect as well due to supersonic to subsonic velocity shift.

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by desben on Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:33 pm

Tim:H11 wrote:I'm curious now though about other .22LR Rimfire pistols as well. Say the Ruger MK series

FWIW, I think the Ruger Mark are just fine with HV. Mine has had over 20k rounds of HV through it and it's in great shape. It's almost broken in now Smile . It trades refinement for reliability and toughness.

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by GrumpyOldMan on Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:56 am

Jerry:

THANKS for posting how they fail, which of course tells us what to look for.

It would seem that the S&W slide crack is a much easier fix than the H-S frame letting go. My mental gears are turning and every crazy idea to "product improvement program" upgrade the H-S frame is running into a "can't do THAT" problem. Wonder if just a frame re-design adding .05 inch thickness to the left side would do it???

I'm seeing problems with rotational stress on both failure modes. 

Perhaps introducing a paradoxical solution of less slide mass, changing its distribution around the centerline of deceleration, and maybe even adding mass on the other side (vertically) of the rearward slam-stop line?

On the H-S, one of my first wonderings was about doubling the mass behind that peened-up stop boss where the slide bangs. But that would probably make the rear end look oooogly..or add mass forward...???

Either might respond well to a double spring arrangement where a secondary spring which engages AFTER case ejection to drastically reduce the slam backwards thing...

There's gotta be a way.

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by Jerry Keefer on Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:48 am

Grumpy
A major part of the issue is failure to follow basic design and machining pratices...Radius and fillets are missing in every case. The surface finish of the interior of the HS is just shameful...sharp corners every where. Cracks/stress risers waiting to happen. All 41 s could use a larger radius in the cracked area.. I repaired that slide with a generous radius, and radiused the barrel to match.  It's now running well.  Someday, I will make a weld repair attempt on the HS frame.. The owner is a super High Master, who now uses Hammerlis, so there's no rush..SmileSmileSmile

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by Wobbley on Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:53 am

There is not enough information to pinpoint the precise cause.  But one place to look is the broached opening through the top rail for the magazine.  There seems to be a decided sharp corner where the ejector protrudes.  If that can be made tangent I bet the issue is reduced.

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by Jerry Keefer on Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:30 am

Wobbley wrote:There is not enough information to pinpoint the precise cause.
Repetitive shock....

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by Jack H on Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:19 pm

Worst HS frame break I saw was a Victor broken on both sides like Jerry's pictured one.  The one I saw even had chips of the thin metal on the left missing.  Front half and rear half of the frame was held together only by the metal on one side at the bottom of the grip.  And it was still operable.

The first break is always on the right side like pictures show at the slide stop cutout.  I have smoothed the edges there and at the right rear corner of the magwell.  The real insurance is to use SV ammo, and spring maintenance.

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

Post by Wobbley on Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:28 pm

Jerry Keefer wrote:
Wobbley wrote:There is not enough information to pinpoint the precise cause.
Repetitive shock....
Ok.  Where did the crack start?  Any metallurgical analysis (hardness to spec, alloy used correct, etc),  This all part of failure analysis to point to the precise cause.  First looks are not always correct.  

Since the desire is to not destroy the frame, the precise cause cannot be determined.  However I do agree that the machining is poor and far too many sharp corners are left.

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Re: 22 hv vs sv

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