Timed and Rapid Cadence

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Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by gptuners on Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:55 am

I've noticed that my shooting is significantly better on Rapid than on Timed. I've heard of people adopting the same cadence for both, but I feel the need to try to use all my time to get the "better" shot. What do you do?

Timed:


Rapid:


THanks,
Carlos

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by dronning on Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:47 am

When you let your subconscious shoot the shot you will always do better that if you try and "dress up the shot".  Having a solid shot process will help remove that urge.  To me focusing on a cadence is a bad thing it forces you to shoot even if you are not on target (10 or X).  Also bad triggering can happen when you get off beat and you rush to get back on cadence.

When you develop a solid shot process and you are able to follow that process 10 seconds seems like an eternity. 

Check out the book "With Winning in Mind" by Lanny Bassham.

- Dave

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by jmdavis on Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:49 am

Is that .45, .38, 9mm, .22 or something else?

Your "cadence" (a word that I dislike greatly) depends on your sight alignment and keeping the sights in your aiming area. If the sights are aligned and you are in your aiming area, break the shot without disturbing the alignment and picture. If not, get the sights aligned and in the aiming area and break the shot without disturbing the alignment and picture. 

Some people shoot timed better than rapid. Some shoot them the same. Some use one speed for both and some don't. 

Do you have goals? Are you sure of your zero? Do you practice dryfire?

And David is right, you need a process WAY more than a cadence.


Last edited by jmdavis on Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by Christopher Miceli on Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:50 am

Do you take the full time for the timed fire portion?  You may be spending too long dressing up the shot and are becoming fatigued which could cause your hold to deteriorate and or you're trying snatching a 10.  Do you feel you're holding your breath for a long period?  I was doing that.... caused my hold to pulse and my vision to blur. 

I tend to use more time then rapid but less then the full timed fire amount. 

Try some of the one and two shot drills.  I believe Apple and Google apps have a firing line  app.

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by Jack H on Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:58 pm

Rhythm is a better word.  That is rhythm of holding, sighting, triggering, and recovery.  Repeat.

Get off rhythm and all sorts of things can happen.  Conscious kicks in, forcing one part of the shot which in turn takes away from other parts.  I call it the cascade effect.

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by SSgtG on Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:28 pm

I shoot them both with the same rhythm or cadence. The only difference is the first shot, I don't worry so much about getting the first one off on the turn (or buzzer) in timed fire. But once the first shot goes the rest are shot in the same cadence. I regularly am done in timed fire in around 10 seconds. Once you get the trigger finger working in conjunction with the hold/sights it just happens. One thing that sticks with me from USMC match training and the Moody/Zins clinic is to keep the trigger moving. The first 2 3/4 lbs of a 3 lb trigger doesn't mean a thing, it's all about what is happening at the break. You have to commit to the shot process which will involve squeezing pressure well before your sights are settled and in your aiming area. IF you wait to start the squeeze when the sights are in the black (insert your personal aiming area here) you are too late. There are times when the shot goes off on before I am even ready and they almost invariably are center shots.

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by jmdavis on Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:55 pm

SSGTG wrote:You have to commit to the shot process which will involve squeezing pressure well before your sights are settled and in your aiming area. IF you wait to start the squeeze when the sights are in the black (insert your personal aiming area here) you are too late. There are times when the shot goes off on before I am even ready and they almost invariably are center shots.



This is all true. But if you are breaking shots out of your aiming area, something is wrong. You have to have good alignment and be in your aiming area before the shot breaks. But you have to trust that you will be in your aiming area and have good alignment to start your uninterrupted trigger squeeze. 

I have had the same thing happen with regard to the shot going before I think I am ready.

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by gptuners on Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:32 pm

jmdavis wrote:Is that .45, .38, 9mm, .22 or something else?

Your "cadence" (a word that I dislike greatly) depends on your sight alignment and keeping the sights in your aiming area. If the sights are aligned and you are in your aiming area, break the shot without disturbing the alignment and picture. If not, get the sights aligned and in the aiming area and break the shot without disturbing the alignment and picture. 

Some people shoot timed better than rapid. Some shoot them the same. Some use one speed for both and some don't. 

Do you have goals? Are you sure of your zero? Do you practice dryfire?

And David is right, you need a process WAY more than a cadence.
Sorry- that's .45 from 1911. I

I started practicing a month before Camp Perry, and have improved significantly, but am still trying to figure out what's comfortable for me. My scores are getting closer to the cutoff to EIC points (235 this week).

Long term Goals: 
Distinguished Pistol and a President's 100 tab.

Short term Goals: 
Get consistent 250+ NMC scores by Spring.
Finish 2016 with at least 10 points. 
I'd like to start with the 4 points for the M9 match at Camp Perry in 2016, but if I can break 250 by Spring, I'm shooting in as much as I can.

Zero is true at 25 (shot from rest first, then dialed in to my shooting style). This means the sights are a bit right at the moment to compensate for my poor trigger control. 
Dryfire reveals I'm still disrupting the front sight a bit to the left. I've improved, and basically adjust the rear when my groups start coming back to where they should be.

I've been reading the forum, SAFS Manual, and Tony's Blog, but haven't done much else yet. Still trying to weed through the stacks of info.

So far I've went from a 99 NMC to a 235 NMC since June, so I have a Loooong way to go. Smile

Thanks,
Carlos

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by gptuners on Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:36 pm

I'll start using rhythm instead of cadence. Wink

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by Christopher Miceli on Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:12 pm

I would recommend the follow books to read  USAMU Pisto Guide (for sale on CMP Estore), and the Gil Hebard Pistol Shooters Treasury(not sure where you can find a new copy) .  They were helpful to me.  Most of it is the same info but express by different points of view. 
Also the USMC training guide(off Brian Zins webste)

http://estore.thecmp.org/store/catalog/catalog.aspx?pg=product&ID=778&item=&sfv=&cat=BKS&desc=&udc=&mct=&vndr=&ba=&pmin=&pmax=¬e1=¬e2=¬e3=¬e4=¬e5=&max=

http://www.brianzins.com/training/

Dryfire reveals I'm still disrupting the front sight a bit to the left. I've improved, and basically adjust the rear when my groups start coming back to where they should be.  


One thing I would recommend is check your grip and make sure you can make it repeatable.  Also try different size triggers and flat and arched mainsprings.

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by jmdavis on Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:14 pm

Go to this link, get the workbook and if you are not shooting 22 start with the 45 section. If you are willing to shoot 22 start there and work your way through. Follow the process and you will see results. Skip the process and things slow dramatically, at least that was true for me. I did the 22 section and then thought I knew enough to just shoot the 45. Until I started going through the 45 section, by improvement was slow. 

All of that said, you are making good progress. Do you have a local mentor? One might be able to help. They can help you with things that it would take a long time to discover on your own. 

BTW, where do you shoot and are you shooting matches. Match shooting is good practice because it helps you practice for the pressure of shooting matches. It also can let you watch really good shooters and learn from that experience. 

http://www.brianzins.com/training/

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by dronning on Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:24 pm

Christopher Miceli wrote:
......  Also try different size triggers and flat and arched mainsprings.
One thing to remember when trying different triggers & mainspring housings.  Comfortable doesn't always = better results.  I found the arched mainspring to be a "perfect" fit for my hand.  At first my scores were about the same but they slowly declined, back to flat and improvements started right away.  Remember this your results may vary!


- Dave

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by Regular_Guy on Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:47 pm

Carlos, I'm in a similar boat as you with being fairly new to bullseye and scores slowly improving. I shot by far my best 45 timed fire at the last match, at 94. I was actually taking the time to aim the shots before breaking them, and it worked for me. My rapids are not nearly as good, but I've managed to hit 240 in the 45 NMC the last 2 times.

I tried the cadence for both, and have improved, but my recovery still isn't putting me back consistently in the black, even with a locked elbow and shifting my rear foot in the direction the gun recoils to (left). I do know that not gripping as hard as I should is holding me back, and am trying to work on that.

I think I'm like you that I've been trying to focus (oxymoron?) on letting my subconscious shoot, and it works well most of the time in slow fire but I haven't been able to let it take over in timed or rapids yet. Most shooters I've talked to say that letting the subconscious take over is something that just clicked for them at some point. It still hasn't clicked for me yet.

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by gptuners on Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:15 pm

jmdavis wrote:Go to this link, get the workbook and if you are not shooting 22 start with the 45 section. If you are willing to shoot 22 start there and work your way through. Follow the process and you will see results. Skip the process and things slow dramatically, at least that was true for me. I did the 22 section and then thought I knew enough to just shoot the 45. Until I started going through the 45 section, by improvement was slow. 

All of that said, you are making good progress. Do you have a local mentor? One might be able to help. They can help you with things that it would take a long time to discover on your own. 

BTW, where do you shoot and are you shooting matches. Match shooting is good practice because it helps you practice for the pressure of shooting matches. It also can let you watch really good shooters and learn from that experience. 

http://www.brianzins.com/training/

Thanks! Will do!
Christopher Miceli wrote:I would recommend the follow books to read  USAMU Pisto Guide (for sale on CMP Estore), and the Gil Hebard Pistol Shooters Treasury(not sure where you can find a new copy) .  They were helpful to me.  Most of it is the same info but express by different points of view. 
Also the USMC training guide(off Brian Zins webste)

http://estore.thecmp.org/store/catalog/catalog.aspx?pg=product&ID=778&item=&sfv=&cat=BKS&desc=&udc=&mct=&vndr=&ba=&pmin=&pmax=¬e1=¬e2=¬e3=¬e4=¬e5=&max=

http://www.brianzins.com/training/

Dryfire reveals I'm still disrupting the front sight a bit to the left. I've improved, and basically adjust the rear when my groups start coming back to where they should be.  


One thing I would recommend is check your grip and make sure you can make it repeatable.  Also try different size triggers and flat and arched mainsprings.

I have the AMU book from SAFS this year. Smile Glad to see another vote for Brian Zins though. Thanks!

Regular_Guy wrote:Carlos, I'm in a similar boat as you with being fairly new to bullseye and scores slowly improving. I shot by far my best 45 timed fire at the last match, at 94. I was actually taking the time to aim the shots before breaking them, and it worked for me. My rapids are not nearly as good, but I've managed to hit 240 in the 45 NMC the last 2 times.

I tried the cadence for both, and have improved, but my recovery still isn't putting me back consistently in the black, even with a locked elbow and shifting my rear foot in the direction the gun recoils to (left). I do know that not gripping as hard as I should is holding me back, and am trying to work on that.

I think I'm like you that I've been trying to focus (oxymoron?) on letting my subconscious shoot, and it works well most of the time in slow fire but I haven't been able to let it take over in timed or rapids yet. Most shooters I've talked to say that letting the subconscious take over is something that just clicked for them at some point. It still hasn't clicked for me yet.


Nice! I'll see you at Perry next year! Wink

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by Ed Hall on Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:41 pm

Some comments, in a possibly scrambled order:

- Cadence or rhythm is often a result rather than a process.  Having made that statement, remember that you should expect the gun to fire and try to align the sighting system prior to the shot happening.

- Dressing up a shot tends to promote taking it away from where you would like to be by the time it fires.  Better Rapid than Timed Fire often signifies a good trigger operation with too much dressing.

- As already stated, your trigger initiation needs to precede your best alignment.  This will help to ensure you are on your way toward the best shot, rather than on your way away.

- Your trigger operation should be relatively quick so you can keenly "see" how pure it is by using the sighting system to evaluate the process.

- You should dry fire many, many more shots than you live fire.

- You should not focus at all on the xxx/300, or even the xx/100 for stages, during the match.  Focus instead on the process that brings good shots.  You might mentally keep a tally of how many shots fit your description of good, if you need something to occupy your mind rather than final scores.

- All pressures should be in line with the bore.

- Make sure your process is written down in a manner that it is limited to positives that lead to good shots.  Review this process often and modify it as you progress.

- IMNSHO, it is better to learn to shoot good shots from one to five than to throw five downrange in an attempt to make the time limit.  A suggested drill:

Thread: Re: What do you practice at the range?

That's probably more than asked...

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by Tim:H11 on Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:28 pm

I do not have the credentials that some do here, nor do I have a classification. Technically I'm a temporary master. But I shoot 95 to 96.6 percent out of 900 with my .22 rim fire pistol on the regular in practice. I did not always shoot that well. My teachings and up brining in precision pistol shooting was done so through muzzleloading pistols. So everything is slow fire in bullseye terms. Speed is a bi-product. You have to learn how to fire one good shot, over and over again but the trick I had to learn when picking up conventional pistols after excelling with muzzleloaders - is that you have to learn how to recover from the recoil and disturbance of the previous shot. Once the sights are re-aligned and back on target the next shot breaks. There is a trigger control technique involved, and much focus is needed. Don't rush shots, and don't think too much on it causing you to hold on one for too long. And don't think about time. When you get it down good, you'll start shaving time. Now do I use more time in times then rapid? Yes. But it's because I slow down my shot process just a little bit on recovery. It's a relaxed rapid fire. Sometimes I'm doing so well that I'll use the same amount of time in both. Sometimes I do better taking more time timed fire. It had nothing to do with time. It had everything to do with focus on what I was doing. Front sight, and trigger. 1A, 1B.

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by C.Perkins on Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:09 pm

A rhythm or cadence may be subjected to an outside influence to disrupt those terms.
A process is just that.

I will take a process and outcome over a rhythm/cadence oh crap moment.

If you have process and an oh crap moment comes up, you drive on to accomplish the said outcome.

If you have an oh crap moment during your rhythm/cadence you get rushed for time cause your brain wants to fire the shot even when it is not time to for the best result.

Using a process, you just overcome the oh crap moment with time to spare.

I use up most all the time in SF, TF and RF.
Just the way I have always done it.

SF=1 shot a minute
TF=1 shot 4 sec.
RF=1 shot 2 sec.
You need to mentally slow down and let your subconscious take over.
It knows better than you do, it is that you just do not know it, yet Smile

YMMV.

Clarence

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by LenV on Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:12 pm

Clarence said
   "I use up most all the time in SF, TF and RF.
Just the way I have always done it."

I used to be that shooter. I have changed as I have gotten older. Now I shoot everything at a RF pace. I can always stop the SF if I feel that I need to. The trigger just breaks cleaner for me if I keep a positive and aggressive pull on it. That's me YMMV.

Len

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by CR10X on Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:41 am

A subject worth much discussion!

Ed hit the target with his comments, I'll try (with much ineptness) to phrase it another way.

Cadence is not the goal, but a result.  I've had the opportunity to shoot beside and watching most of the best shooters around.  While many people may think their results are the product of cadence, that is not really the case.  Many times I've heard or seen a great shooter have strings with shots at somewhat varying times, or 1, 2, or even 3 shots outside the beginning cadence and the score result were not any different than 
"good cadence" strings.  So what does this tell us?

First off, to shoot a clean, the first shot has to be a 10, right!   And the second, third, etc.  So how do we shoot the first 10?  By completing the trigger process when the sight alignment will create a 10 of course.  By seeing a "10" sight picture and completing the trigger.  Question is, do we know what our "10" sight picture looks like?   (Does it have to be perfect alignment on the exact center of the aiming area with no movement does it?  Have we trained to see what is a acceptable shot for the short line, or are we just hoping and blinking our way through the string?)

Shooting good scores, either the short or long line, is based on seeing what we need to see to produce an acceptable shot.  Really good shooters have generally developed the ability to get the gun and sight into the proper position, see the wobble and direction of the sight alignment moving towards the center of the aiming area and complete the the trigger process without adding any additional unwanted energy (movement) into the system.  And they do it consistently from shot to shot that creates the "cadence" we hear.  

Just shooting the gun at a specific time is simply training the mind that its ok to shoot a shot that doesn't meet our acceptable level.  Conversely, taking more time than needed for the shot (to dress it up some more) is also training our mind that it is ok to not shoot an acceptable shot.  And either of those is just creating a habit of shooting shots that NOT acceptable.  

So don't worry about the timing, long or short (that will come with training).  Work on shooting a 10 on the first shot.  And from what I've seen, its easier for most shooter to learn how to speed up the shot process than it is for a shooter to slow down and get the acceptable sight picture.  Time creates a big fear in a lot of us on the short line (myself included, we just have to keep in under control).  

And then work on duplicating that 2, 3 4 or 5 times in a row.  (By that time, you have damn good cadence and everyone will be thinking your good because of the cadence (speed), when you will know its because of what you see.)

Just some thoughts to toss out into the sea of shooting opinions. 

CR

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by KenO on Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:54 pm

That makes a lot of sense CR, thanks! I'm reading that if you see/feel the 10, shoot it. Not holding off because its "not time yet" or shooting before you have that 10 resoluted, because its "time".

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by Tim:H11 on Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:13 pm

1.A and 1.B - Sight Alignment / Sight Picture, and Trigger Control. You've got to have control of the trigger so that you only release that shot once your sights are aligned and you've got the sight picture you want. People may disagree with me but I strongly feel that like in the book "The Pistol Shooter's Treasury" by Gil Hebard, many top shooters have like minded advice. The words to convey that same message may differ some.

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by Ed Hall on Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:19 am

Tim:H11 wrote:1.A and 1.B - Sight Alignment / Sight Picture, and Trigger Control. You've got to have control of the trigger so that you only release that shot once your sights are aligned and you've got the sight picture you want. People may disagree with me but I strongly feel that like in the book "The Pistol Shooter's Treasury" by Gil Hebard, many top shooters have like minded advice. The words to convey that same message may differ some.
The trouble with the highlighted portion is that if you misunderstand this release to mean the initiation of the shot, you will be behind in that shot.  You must initiate the trigger operation prior to the alignment and let it fire as alignment is reached.  I used to say that you should finish the shot as alignment occurs, but I was rightly corrected in that you are not finished with a shot until you have included follow through.  In any case, the optimum shot is initiated during your process, such that the bullet is launched when you reach alignment.

When you have studied and trained enough, you will find that you can start the trigger as you approach alignment and the gun will fire as it is reached, and you will "feel" like an observer of someone else's performance.  Results will be good...

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by Tim:H11 on Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:23 am

Yes Ed better said it. After recoil I'm already applying pressure to the trigger as I'm getting back to the sight picture needed. This way I'm not getting on target, start applying pressure, wobble off target, stop the pressure, get back on, start pressure again... That's a nightmare and an easy way to rush or snatch shots and start jerking the trigger. It's common of new shooters I think. But this all means you need to learn your trigger so you don't launch wild shots by having too much pressure on the trigger too soon. Like Gil said, so many ways to talk about what I believe we all do pretty close - maybe not exactly - but pretty close to the same thing.

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by gptuners on Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:14 am

It's funny Tim, because I'm starting to think you really do all do the same things. Different ways of looking at it, but i guess there are only so many ways you can get a bullet to hit where you want it to.

I was trying to get a handle of the available time during a course of fire during SAFS, a told my buddy Chris "I'm going to slow down, and think 1..2..3..shoot. 1..2..3..shoot."

Our Instructor, Gunnery Sgt. Barry A. Worster, heard that and said "Is fine to think of that timing in your head, but you better be applying pressure to the trigger while you're counting. If you wait until the last second, you going to pull the shot."

That's when I started that line of thinking, but I still haven't gotten to the point where it's engrained.

Now you guys are going to make me think more about my process. Wink

Thanks for the food for thought!

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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

Post by Jerry Keefer on Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:11 pm

A good bullseye coach is a priceless benefit.. Not all good shooters = a good coach.. Video tape one's self.. It is a tremendous help in analyzing technique and seeing errors. If an exact rhythm or cadence is evident, something is probably wrong..Shoot your own shot, and ignore / block out the shots from other shooters who normally shoot too fast.
Follow thru is one of the hardest of all aspects to teach.. The shooter has to feel and see the follow thru, on every shot. Recognizing and correcting errors in follow thru if it occurs.
How intense is one's focus ? Do you count?? Do you blink at the shot ?? Blinking is a fault that must be corrected. Can you accurately call the shot?? Calling the shot accurately is an essential skill. At recoil and follow thru, there should be a micro moment of "Dwell", where motionless occurs. Then and only then recovery begins.
A frequent regime of one & two shot drills on a turning target are invaluable...Learn to shoot the "turn"..
I believe taking the full 20 on timed is beneficial for skilled shooters who can control the process, and then easily transition to RF techniques, and eat the X ring out.. Training TF & RF alternately will teach and ingrain transition. Not everyone can do it..


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Re: Timed and Rapid Cadence

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