Mixing Divisions into match results

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Mixing Divisions into match results

Post by Motorcycle_dan on 12/21/2015, 7:44 am

The new rules setting up 3 separate division, production, metallic sight, and open added a new twist to sorting match results.  Now the same person could have 3 separate classifications, one from each division.  How is a match director supposed to add them into the mix.  Different directors did it different ways.  The rules were murky at best with no direction as to how to add someone into the mix.  Wanting an "official" approved division integration I went to the pistol committee and asked.  Here is the e-mail chain from Jim Lenardson and Ted Carter. 

Hi to all.  Dan is correct in being able to shoot in the Expert category with iron sights.  Any of us can shoot ‘irons’ and obtain another classification if you so desire.  Have at it! 
Enjoy the day and the fine weekend too!

From: cdrcoach.com
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 1:51 PM
To: Jim Lenardson
Subject: RE: FW: Filing protest about a match result

Hi Jim,
You are absolutely correct in your discussion.  If you're an Expert Metallic Division and shoot the entire match with a Metallic pistol, you will compete with the Metallic Experts...and if there are no Metallic Experts, then you'll compete with the Open Division Experts.

You are again correct on your last statement.  2 for 2...you're good.
Now, Mr. Pistol Committee member...you were at the meeting that established the three divisions.  If you think I'm wrong in any of my explanations, please let me know.  
Ted   

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jim Lenardson"
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:26am
To: "
[email=cdrcoach@.com]cdrcoach.com[/email]"
Subject: Filing protest about a match result

Thanks for the wishes and the explanation!  So, if Dan fired the complete match with metallic sights (iron sights) on his model 41 and his 1911 guns, he can and should be simply competing in the expert class.  Is that correct?  I just want to ‘put’ him where he belongs and be able to explain it to others.  If the above is correct, then any shooter can have two classifications with the same guns simply by removing the dots or scopes.  Correct? 

Jim Lenardson

From: cdrcoach.com
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 10:02 AM
To: Jim Lenardson
Subject: RE: FW: Filing protest about a match result


Jim,
 While it makes running a match somewhat challenging for the match director, here's the intent of the verbiage.

Example:  Ted Carter holds a Master classification in Precision Pistol Open Division.  Ted also holds an Expert classification in Precision Pistol Metallic Division and finally Ted holds a Sharpshooter Classification in Precision Pistol Production Division.

Ted fires a 2700 with a Production pistol in .22, a Metallic pistol in CF and an Open pistol in .45.

Ted is assigned with the Sharpshooters for .22 (assuming sufficient Sharpshooters to have a class)
     - If there are no other Production shooters for the .22 Sharpshooter class, Ted would be combined with the Metallic Sharpshooters, then if still insufficient numbers, Ted would be combined with the Open Sharpshooters.

Ted is assigned with the Experts for CF (assuming sufficient Experts to have a class)
     - If there are no other Metallic shooters for the .CF Expert class, Ted would be combined with the Open Experts.

Ted is assigned with the Masters for .45 (assuming sufficient Masters to have a class)

For the 2700 grand aggregate, Ted is assigned with the Masters because the grand aggregate is based on the highest division shot.

I'm not sure what Dan means when he refers to the "rules committee"?  Does he mean Pistol Committee?  If Dan requested clarification from the Pistol Committee, I have not seen his letter, have you?

Dan is welcome to protest the results of a match using the procedures outlined in Section 16 of the Precision Pistol rule book. 

If there is a better way to reword the current verbiage in the Precision Pistol rule book, I and the other members of the Pistol Committee would very much welcome input.

I hope the above clarifies the intent of the rule.  If not, let's talk.  I think I've run this issue by Kenn Boyd before, but will be glad to do it again for his expert input.

Cheers,
Ted
-----Original Message-----
From: "Jim Lenardson"

Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 8:01am
To: "
[email=cdrcoach@.com]cdrcoach.com[/email]"
Subject: FW: Filing protest about a match result


Some more of his thinking.  Thanks Ted!!

 Hi Ross,

My question was how to I go about filing a protest.  I talked to the match director and they agree the wording is poor at best.  I’ve already got an e-mail from the rules committee but that does squat from the standpoint of any match director.  The purpose of the protest is to force a ruling that can be used in other matches as proof of how it should be administered.

The rules state that I must shoot in the highest division I’m ranked in.

So if I shot a S&W mdl 17 revolver for the rim fire portion, then a pardini with a dot for CF then a 1911 hard ball iron sight gun for .45

I would have competed in all three divisions, production, open and metallic sight.  In that case I would compete as a HM classification since one of the legs of the competition was done as Open. 

Since I competed throughout the whole match with metallic sights only (.22, CF, & .45) I only competed as an Expert. 

Since there were no other experts in metallic sight division I should be lumped into the open division people.  But as an Expert (my contention) as I am a card carrying Expert classified within the metallic sight division. 

The match director was unsure and there were an equal number of opinions offered by all present at the match.  I spoke with her made sure it was OK first then asked if I could file a protest after the final results were completed in order to get an official ruling.

No one plays precision pistol for “the prize money” I do however like to be in my peer group for classification purposes.

Ralph Daniel Pauley
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Shooter data base.

Post by Motorcycle_dan on 12/21/2015, 8:28 am

Match director spread sheets. Most directors use some form of excel spreadsheet to record match results.  (I do wish the NRA would create and support a specific spread sheet for match directors)

Just food for thought.  Having a competitor with multiple division and classifications makes it difficult for match directors.  I would offer this: give each competitor a name that identifies him/her by division.  So there would be regular Dan Pauley (open div) who is a Master. Then there is also a "MS-Dan Pauley" who is an Expert in Metallic Sight division.  And finally there is a "PD-Dan Pauley" who is a Sharp shooter in the Production division.  By using the different names a shooter could be in the data base more than once.
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Re: Mixing Divisions into match results

Post by Rob Kovach on 12/21/2015, 9:57 am

.....or Dan could start shooting Master scores with all 3 guns.  That would make things much easier!  Smile
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Re: Mixing Divisions into match results

Post by rvlvrlvr on 12/21/2015, 1:12 pm

Since we can technically fire a different gun for each 'match', let's throw a wrench in there and have someone mix-and-match, competing in different divisions for each of the twelve fired 'matches' in a 2700 match:

.22 Slow: open
.22 NMC: production
.22 Timed: metallic
.22 Rapid: open
CF Slow: production
CF NMC: metallic
CF Timed: open
CF Rapid: production
.45 Slow: metallic
.45 NMC: open
.45 Timed: production
.45 Rapid: metallic

Now what would their aggregate classifications be? .22 Aggregate = ...what division? CF Aggregate? .45 Aggregate? Overall Aggregate? Heh.

Not that I think someone would actually win a match doing that, let alone be competitive, but I'd bet if anyone could pull that off, it'd be Motorcycle Dan =)
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Re: Mixing Divisions into match results

Post by Tim:H11 on 12/21/2015, 2:33 pm

I'm still relatively new to bullseye, I thought a 2700 was a 2700...? Their are CMP/EIC matches and a distinguished revolver match, but never knew of or heard of these divisions before... I shoot all iron sights. But I don't want to be limited to competing against people with just irons. I wanna shoot against everyone.
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Re: Mixing Divisions into match results

Post by CR10X on 12/21/2015, 3:07 pm

Rvlvrlvr:
It depends on the award schedule in the match program. Rules for your example would have the 2700 agg be open, highest division shot, by classification and promoted by minimum number per awards schedule. For each 900, if awarded, again open since highest divison shot, again then by classification per schedule. For each individual match, either by actual requirements in the award schedule from the program, promoted upwards by minimum for awards by division first, then by classification OR as described in the match program. For example, at our small match awards are by classification only, minimum of three per class, everyone promoted to open (mostly because I've never had 3 of the same classification in any division except open).

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Re: Mixing Divisions into match results

Post by john bickar on 12/21/2015, 4:53 pm

rvlvrlvr wrote:Not that I think someone would actually win a match doing that

I'd take that bet.

If the order was up for negotiation (and presuming only one Open match per 900), I'd shoot Open for slow, Metallic for NMC, Production for TF, and Metallic for rapid.

Not sure how much Production would slow me down, but I'd bet dollars to donuts I could break 2600 like that.

But I wouldn't, because I'm not a sadist. I respect my match directors and appreciate the time they give to our sport.
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Re: Mixing Divisions into match results

Post by john bickar on 12/21/2015, 5:00 pm

And I don't mean to imply that Kent or Dan are sadists. It's a fun thought exercise, but I really don't want to make life harder for those who volunteer their limited free time to keep our sport going.
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