the insanity continues. Trigger job.

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the insanity continues. Trigger job.

Post by Tim:H11 on Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:26 am

I'm frustrated. I put a reduce power 24 pound ILS mainspring in the RO, I used the power custom series 1 sear jig and followed the brownells directions for a 2.5 pound trigger but but didn't go as light on the sear spring as the instructions say. I got a great feeling 4 pound trigger pull with no creep, clean.... Near perfect.... Hammer still follows.... WHAT AM I DOING WRONG!?

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Re: the insanity continues. Trigger job.

Post by jglenn21 on Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:38 am

Does it following when actually loading rounds. For me that's all that matters.

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Re: the insanity continues. Trigger job.

Post by Froneck on Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:54 am

Follows?  What do you exactly mean? Does the hammer follow the slide as the slide closes or does the gun slam fire? If it slam fires (hammer falls after the slide closes so that if it was loaded it would have doubled) , lock the slide back, No clip or ammo, Hold the trigger to the rear and release the slide. Does the hammer fall??

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Re: the insanity continues. Trigger job.

Post by DavidR on Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:44 pm

First thing is throw away the ro locking main spring housing and replace with a older standard one, install a 18# spring,as to setting up the powers jig, look for posts about it from ron powers or contact him and ask him. but if truly want the best sear set up order a true radius jig, then long as your hammer hooks are good and you use a quality sear, you will have perfect trigger jobs for ever.

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Re: the insanity continues. Trigger job.

Post by dronning on Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:06 pm

DavidR wrote:. but if truly want the best sear set up order a true radius jig, then long as your hammer hooks are good and you use a quality sear, you will have perfect trigger jobs for ever.

+1
Get the updated version the HD-806 True Radius PRO, simplicity at it's best!


- Dave


Last edited by dronning on Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: the insanity continues. Trigger job.

Post by Tim:H11 on Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:20 pm

I'm thinking of dropping in a cylinder and slide sear, hammer, and disconnect set from midway. It has good reviews. Any words on the set?

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Re: the insanity continues. Trigger job.

Post by james r chapman on Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:05 pm

Try this.

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=241256

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Re: the insanity continues. Trigger job.

Post by Jon Eulette on Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:29 pm

Tim,
You're wssting a lot of time and money. Get a BE smith to do your trigger job. No such thing as a drop in trigger kit. It's hit or miss. KC's kit is more forgiving because it's a roll trigger. 
Jon

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Re: the insanity continues. Trigger job.

Post by Rob Kovach on Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:34 pm

I have the Cylinder and Slide USMC roll trigger kit in my Springfield and it works well and doesn't double or hammer follow. http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=prodshow&ref=CS0220

The drop in kit will require you to switch to the NON-ILS mainspring setup, as it comes with a non-ILS mainspring as part of the components.

Like Jerry Keefer said on other threads--There are a lot of sears out there that are shorter than spec.  It's really difficult to make a sear longer.

The good thing about the USMC kit is it has .023" hammer hooks--which would go a long way to stop hammer follow.

By doing this work without training, precision measuring tools, or specs, you are at a real disadvantage.  Smiths like KC Crawford and Jerry Keefer on this forum have diagnosed a million triggers and it's old hat to them.

You are going to spend a lot of time and money figuring this out by yourself--and that's OK if the learning experience is worth it to you.

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Re: the insanity continues. Trigger job.

Post by Rob Kovach on Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:36 pm

+1 on KC Crawford's kit.  It has all of the good attributes of the C&S kit, but it comes with helpful guidance from KC.

It will also work with your beavertail safety while the C&S one really needs a GI grip safety.

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Re: the insanity continues. Trigger job.

Post by dronning on Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:55 pm

+1 on KC's triggers, I have 5.  3 kits, one each in my 22 conversion, hardball and Les Baer wad guns.  They dropped right in.  I also have 2 in guns that KC built, a 9MM & a .45 wadgun I was lucky enough to buy used.

His kits are great, but the triggers he installs and tweaks himself are nothing but fantastic!

- Dave

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Re: the insanity continues. Trigger job.

Post by Tim:H11 on Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:46 pm

I was really hoping to learn more on the sear and hammer job and do it my self. Not because of a hope to save money but because I really wanted to learn this stuff. Like I said I've got some tools and a good jig and have followed instructions but no luck. If some sears are too short then what is a typical sear that people use on their own builds that don't have the length issue?

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Re: the insanity continues. Trigger job.

Post by Dr.Don on Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:27 pm

Tim,
Dropping the slide on an empty chamber is actually a harsh test of the trigger system.  When the hammer falls to half cock in this test, but does not follow or fall to half cock when a round is loaded from the magazine, it is almost always due to "trigger bump".  That is, the slide slams closed on the frame at full speed, the frame is jerked forward, and the inertia of the free trigger causes it to bump the sear and release it to half cock.  You can prove this to yourself by holding the trigger forward so it cannot move and release the slide on an empty chamber.  If the hammer following stops you have proven it is trigger bump. We try to get around this problem with super lightweight triggers (reduced mass), increased tension on the middle leaf of the sear spring, and optimum sear/hammer geometry.  But it isn't trivial to solve and a lot of experience helps.  The dirty little secret is that if you walked the line and tested guns at a big match, my guess is probably 1/3 or more of them would fail this harsh test.  Many of us old timers learned to always hold either the trigger or hammer back when releasing the slide for just this reason.  I don't mean to discourage you in any way as you tinker and learn, but this is one where simply following the recipe is not always enough to yield a good cake.

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Re: the insanity continues. Trigger job.

Post by Tim:H11 on Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:12 am

I got it down to just a hair under 4 pounds. Loaded mag with snap caps, no follow. Empty mag no snap caps, no follow. It's got just a little bit of creep but not much. This is not the sear I bought to use but a spare sear my friend gave me that came out of a smith and Wesson 1911 I think. He had upgraded the parts and had the old sear left over.

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Re: the insanity continues. Trigger job.

Post by Rob Kovach on Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:09 am

I'm glad you figured out the hammer follow problem.

You should be able to fine tune the trigger weight with the leaf spring now.

The "creep" can be polished to a short roll that will give you some feedback that you are actually applying enough pressure to start the trigger moving. I really need that feedback in my process.

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Re: the insanity continues. Trigger job.

Post by Froneck on Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:27 am

First of all thinking that you can buy a sear stoning fixture and do a perfect trigger job is kinda wishful thinking. There is more involved than most think and to often easy explanations of problems were supplied. Though trigger weight can add to hammer falling when the slide is released on a unloaded 1911 it's a bit much to blame trigger weight. Quite a bit of inertia force will be required to have a trigger that at the most will be 1/2 ounce (usually solid Aluminum triggers are much less) to be accelerated to the speed required to overcome the force in pounds required to push the sear off the hammer by the sudden stop of the slide when it closes.
 I'm not going into all that's involved but remember the trigger has no spring pushing it forward and that the forward force is supplied by the disconnector. Understand that the disconnector is being pushed forward by the friction as it's rubbing on the slide which will then pivots rearward below the sear pin. And an angle that will exert rearward force on the sear will multiply any force needed to accelerate the trigger forward as it moves up when it aligns with the slot in the slide. Other issues can be as the disconnector is released from the forward force created by the friction of it rubbing on the slide by the slot cut can be slapped forward again if it contacts the rear of the slot in the slide. I have found that it is not force created by trigger bounce but rather the force requited to accelerate the trigger forward and why the problem is stopped when the trigger is held forward.
 Sear/hammer engagement angle is critical too and this angle changes as the location of engagement changes due to manufacturing tolerance and stoning so it to can cause problems.
 In reality the issues is not simply a trigger weight problem but a combination of many other factors and to think all can be solved with a stoning fixture and an instruction sheet is wishful thinking and are only some of the issues that can create to problem and that if the problem has been taken care of it may return if the sear is stoned do to wear.
 I would recommend to anyone wanting to work on the 1911 sear to fully understand the entire operation of the hammer, sear, disconnector, trigger and all other related parts. Furthermore attend a few gun shows and gather up a hand full  cheap hammer and sears. A great trigger job can be done on any cheap hammer and sear and the student will learn from making a few mistakes without butchering top quality items. The only reason to use top quality parts is to get long life, a cheap hammer/sear may not last an entire match.
 During my many trips to Perry and taking the provided by then the DCM we were instructed with the gun pointing down range  pull the trigger back, place the thumb of the non shooting hand (left hand thumb for right handed shooter) on the hammer then release the slide, with the slide now closed slowly release the hammer so that it is held by the sear then release the trigger when loading the 1911.

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Re: the insanity continues. Trigger job.

Post by Jerry Keefer on Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:55 pm

Dr.Don wrote:
if you walked the line and tested guns at a big match, my guess is probably 1/3 or more of them would fail this harsh test.
This is so true... I am not a fan of the 1911 trigger system..Definitely not a target trigger.. It happens to be sometimes amazingly forgiving. Many that work, simply defy mechanics.
For the novice, the TR Chuck Warner System is very user friendly..
Using angles for engagement, is much more complex.. When you get into trouble with angles, most people are lost.. Without the precision optics, and repeatable tooling/fixtures, there's no way to know which way to go..The more the sear is stoned, the more difficult it becomes, because the sear is getting shorter... Stones are not controllable.. There's no way to know if .0001 or .001 is being removed, and keeping the cut square is impossible. I posted a letter here some time back, written by a very experienced, accomplished Marine Armorer which describes the frustration that can develop with the 1911 trigger. I have never seen a square hammer, which means the hammer hooks need to be prepped first, then with a prepped sear, the two are mated with equal contact.. With the TR radius prepped sear, of the proper length, 90% of the battle is over.
Check the disconnector/sear leg engagement .. How much does it have?? THEN, how much disconnect clearance does it have.?? Both are adjustable.. Both are very important..

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Re: the insanity continues. Trigger job.

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