changing grip long line to short?

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changing grip long line to short?

Post by orpheoet on 3/16/2016, 6:06 am

Right or wrong somewhere I saw someone shooting bullseye with their thumb on the safety and thats how I shoot. I'm satisfied with where I'm at on the long line but I just cant clean a target on the short line! Does anyone change their grip going from 50 to 25 yards? I should mention that I apply zero pressure with my thumb, its just along for the ride up there on the safety.
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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by SMBeyer on 3/16/2016, 7:55 am

If your satisfied with your long line I'd keep your grip the same unless after a string of timed or rapid you have lost control of the gun.  Personally i'd never consider changing my grip from long to short.  I would say you are in the results trap.  More concerned with shooting a 100 and less focused on the fundamentals which are necessary to shoot 10 consecutive shots in the 10 ring.  When looking through the spotting scope there are no shot values (10,9,8 etc) just location.  Confirm shot location with what you saw through the scope on the gun and prepare yourself for the next string of five fundamentally well executed shots.  At your level right now you may not be able to pump out 100 after 100 on the short line but if you stick to well executed shots 100's will come and become more frequent.  There is nothing wrong with a well executed string scoring a 96 or 97.  Work on fundamentally sound strings and when you can do that consistently you will begin to have all five of those well executed shots break in the center of the black.  One of the best things for me was something my air pistol coach told me- "results are a byproduct of the execution of the shot".  Write that down.  Read it.  Understand it.  Believe it.  Remember it because it will always be true.

Scott
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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by Rob Kovach on 3/16/2016, 8:07 am

^^ +1^^^
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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by orpheoet on 3/16/2016, 8:27 am

I'm sure you're absolutely correct. It just seems like I should be cleaning targets by now. I've shot some 98 slow fires and a few 99 sustained. I guess I'm looking for an easy fix.....
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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by BE Mike on 3/16/2016, 10:34 am

orpheoet wrote:Right or wrong somewhere I saw someone shooting bullseye with their thumb on the safety and thats how I shoot. I'm satisfied with where I'm at on the long line but I just cant clean a target on the short line! Does anyone change their grip going from 50 to 25 yards? I should mention that I apply zero pressure with my thumb, its just along for the ride up there on the safety.
The KISS principle applies to a lot in bullseye shooting. I think that it applies in this instance.
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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by Rob Kovach on 3/16/2016, 12:02 pm

I'm about the opposite as far as thumb position and pressure is concerned. My thumb comes down to the point that it touches the top of my middle finger. I do use pressure.

Grip is about consistency. I figure we are going to need one-on-one coaching if there is a fundamental problem with either method. The grip I am using was changed at the first Zins/Moody clinic that I attended, and for what it's worth, the way I made what they taught me work for me in the form of the grip I am using still has the blessing of Andy Moody and Brian Zins. My scores are better with the grip they coached me to have.
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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by DavidR on 3/16/2016, 1:52 pm

They key is consistency from shot to shot, if you cant do it with the same grip then find a grip you can do it with
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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by Rob Kovach on 3/16/2016, 3:03 pm

I've said this on other threads but I find that the best training that ingrains shot process and focus away from score or "shooting that 100" is the 2 shot drill on repeat for 50-60 rounds. There is no time to try and scope your shots, or concentrate on anything other than your breathing, the commands, and shot process.

As a result, you just keep shooting the best 2 shot drill that you can, and by the time you shoot 50-60 shots into the same target, that hole in the middle is pretty big, and there are only a handful of 9s and one or 2 out in the white.

Follow that up with whatever drill you are stuck on in the USMC training manual, and that will be a good training day.
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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by orpheoet on 3/16/2016, 5:12 pm

whats the 2 shot drill?
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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by Jack H on 3/16/2016, 5:45 pm

The size and shape of your hand has a lot to do with gripping.  As far as the thumb position goes, where it is doesn't matter as much as how the position aids the straight forward press on the backstrap.  Effective pressure on the backstrap should be called a goal.  At least a mini-goal.
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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by Chris Miceli on 3/16/2016, 5:46 pm

orpheoet wrote:whats the 2 shot drill?


download the bullseye timer app for iphone or android.  Fire the first shot and follow up second shot before the timer sounds.  If you have a turning target system, fire first shot as target turns and follow up second shot within the time 4 second timer.
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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by orpheoet on 3/16/2016, 8:18 pm

I have that app and I'll definitely give the drill a try. I usually just shoot NMC's to practice. I haven't done any drills.
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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by orpheoet on 3/16/2016, 8:21 pm

SMBeyer wrote: "results are a byproduct of the execution of the shot".  Write that down.  Read it.  Understand it.  Believe it.  Remember it because it will always be true.

Scott
Thanks!
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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by Jon Eulette on 3/16/2016, 8:37 pm

The shot process is/should be identical for long & short line. You shouldn't notice a difference except for timing of lift and settling for targets turning. I would guess you have a fundamental breakdown between the two distances. I see a lot of people firm up for the short line or something like that. That is a change to the process. In my opinion the shooter must/should treat stance and all fundamentals the same for both distances. Gripping pressure is also the same. Don't reinvent the wheel for the short line :p)
It's good that you are noticing/analyzing a difference. I highly suggest spending a lot of time dry firing at a blank wall. Strive for feedback from the dot. It will tell you a story, you just need to listen! This is how you refine each fundamental. It pays dividends. 
Jon
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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by davekp on 3/17/2016, 8:20 am

orpheoet wrote:I have that app and I'll definitely give the drill a try. I usually just shoot NMC's to practice. I haven't done any drills.
Doing drills are part of TRAINING.

Shooting NMCs "for practice" is not the best use of time and effort.

 Developing a good TRAINING plan and then doing it is the way to improvement.

The Marine Red Book is a good training plan. Follow that and watch your scores improve.

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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by dronning on 3/17/2016, 9:01 am

Keith Sanderson Dry Fire Drills


​This has been posted before but worth re-posting.

This was copied from an old Shooting USA article written by Keith Sanderson.  You may find it helpful:

1) Holding Drills: Holding drills help build your position and grip, critically important to the physical aspect of pistol shooting. Holding drills help you develop a consistent natural point of aim by building muscle memory. Effective holding drills occur when you dry fire, then hold your follow-through for 30 to 130 seconds. During this time your primary goal is to maintain consistency in your position and grip. Your sight alignment and the feel of your hand indicates your grip consistency. Your sight picture indicates your position consistency. It is helpful, if not completely necessary, to have someone watch you to ensure that your body remains in the same position as you become fatigued. You can also use smaller targets to help you develop a smaller hold. Here is a holding drill routine that I use to build my position: Dry fire on a target, blank face, or a vertical and horizontal line. Hold your followthrough for 60 seconds. During that time keep your sights aligned and pointed at the same spot. Keep every joint at exactly the same angle. Don’t allow your position to change at all as you tire. Hold for 60 seconds then relax for 120 seconds. Do this six to eight times, three to five times a week.

2) Eyes Closed: Dry firing with your eyes closed allows you to work on your trigger control without visual distractions. For your trigger control to be truly uninterrupted, it must be completely independent of sight alignment and sight picture. Dry firing with your eyes closed is the best way to work on your trigger control because it isolates what you see from what you feel and do. This exercise also allows you to zero in on your grip, ensuring that it is absolutely consistent throughout your shot-process.

3) Blank Target: Dry firing on a blank target is firing on a light colored background, and not on an actual target. A white wall is a great example of a blank target. This exercise forces you to focus on your sights. Sight alignment is the primary goal. Make sure that when you release the trigger there is no movement in the front sight or its relationship to the rear sight notch.

4) Reduced Target and Match Target: Dry firing on a match target is firing on a real target at the appropriate distance for the event for which you are training. If you are unable to train at the full distance, you can use a reduced target at a reduced distance. Training on a target allows you work on and perfect your shot process, fundamentals and sight picture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=620LlSK3Oyo

- Dave
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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by s1120 on 3/17/2016, 9:49 am

davekp wrote:
orpheoet wrote:I have that app and I'll definitely give the drill a try. I usually just shoot NMC's to practice. I haven't done any drills.
Doing drills are part of TRAINING.

Shooting NMCs "for practice" is not the best use of time and effort.

 Developing a good TRAINING plan and then doing it is the way to improvement.

The Marine Red Book is a good training plan. Follow that and watch your scores improve.


I have not been able to find the manual with the drills in it. I saved it ages ago and lost it. Do you have a link?

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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by mspingeld on 3/17/2016, 10:05 am

http://www.brianzins.com/wp-content/uploads/USMCPistolTeamWorkbook.pdf

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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by s1120 on 3/17/2016, 10:55 am

Thank you. I had copied it a wile ago, but could not find the link.

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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by LenV on 3/17/2016, 8:24 pm

I read a neat article a couple of years ago about a 2650 shooter that always changes his grips between the long and the short line. That wasn't a typo when I said grips. He shoots wheel guns and has a different set of grips for both lines. I am sure one of you shooters that remembers everything probably has the whole article somewhere.

Len
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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by Froneck on 6/3/2016, 10:16 am

Len, I can't remember the shooters name but I did meet him I think or at least there was another just like him at Perry. 2650 Revolver shooter. He changed grips because the slow fire grip made it impossible to thumb the hammer so he used his other hand during slow fire to pull the hammer back! For timed and rapid he thumbed the hammer and didn't fire double action therefore requiring a grip change.
 I did post this in other places, it's of my son being interviewed on overcoming injury for shooters. It has some interesting ways to dry fire and mentions a bit about gripping the gun. I think it's worth a listen not because it's my son but the information given. Interestingly it was sent to me by another member of the forum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyNkZHjkkB8

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Re: changing grip long line to short?

Post by Jack H on 6/3/2016, 12:02 pm

Proper pressure on the backstrap with your thumb base is probably one of the most essential things of grip.  What your thumb does on the side is just to be a what works sort of thing
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