Awards System Changes at Nationals

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Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by DirComp on 3/22/2016, 7:45 am

First topic message reminder :

Good morning everyone.  Ever changing IRS regulations and our inability to track everything in the past has resulted in the following policy for awards at Camp Perry.


Due to ever changing IRS regulations and the need for the NRA to be in 100% compliance, there will be some changes made in the awards process at the following NRA championships beginning in 2016; the Bianchi Cup, the National Matches at Camp Perry, the Smallbore Championships in Bristol, IN, the Silhouette Championships, the Black Powder Championships, and the World Shooting Championship.
Let’s start with the basics.  Awards are varied but generally consist of Award Points, Visa gift cards, donated merchandise, checks, trophies, plaques and medals.  Non-taxable items are trophies, plaques and medals.
Beginning in 2016, Visa gift cards will be eliminated and checks will be issued to the winner instead.  Those checks will be sent from NRA Headquarters and will not be available at the championship.
Still available at the National Championship will be Award Points, donated merchandise, trophies, plaques, and medals.
All awards must be picked up at the awards office prior to leaving the championship.  The last day available to pick up awards will be the last day of the championship.  Only checks will be mailed.  All unclaimed items will become property of the NRA.
In order to claim awards the competitor must have a “verified” W9 on file.  What is a “verified” W9?  It is one that has been run through IRS files to verify that the information on the form is correct.  If the W9 cannot be “verified”, no awards will be issued, including any checks from NRA Headquarters.
Upon arrival at each championship you will be asked to complete a W9.  We will request that the information on the W9 be verified.  Once the information on the W9 is verified as accurate, the computer system will be updated with the information that the verification process is complete and awards will be issued as they become available.  Sensitive information on the W9 will not be entered into the computer.
Because there is a time delay between completing the W9 and getting it properly verified, any delay on your part in completing this form will result in an additional delay in your ability to receive an award.  Wait too long and it might not be possible to verify the W9 before the championship ends.
The Competitive Shooting Division recommends that competitors complete a W9 during the registration process.  This will provide sufficient time for the verification process and allow awards to be issued in a timely manner.
As has always been the policy, unused W9s are securely destroyed at the end of the calendar year.

Dennis L. Willing
Director,
NRA Competitive Shooting Division

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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by Wobbley on 4/1/2016, 11:48 am

The only issue I would have with that is what happens when you have a shooter with a 2668 being beaten by a 2650 shooter in such a shoot off?  How does that square?

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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by KelseyECS on 4/1/2016, 3:04 pm

USA Shooting pistol competitions had a finals system like that (with the top 8 advancing).  That was generally well received, until they started ERASING the score from the match and starting all over from scratch for the finals. 

Given the history of 2700 competition I would rather see the championship based on the 2700 score only, but perhaps the top 10 finishers could enter a shoot off for some other worthwhile award in some sort of TV-friendly format (thus not compromising the traditional competition but creating something entertaining for a nice short 5 minute piece).  That may be the only way that precision pistol will ever be seen in a TV format completely dominated by the Rambo events.

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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by Colt711 on 4/2/2016, 6:35 pm

I think Kelsey & Ghillie are onto something! This could be done  "experimentaly" for a season to workout the best format. Possibly some testing at large regionals would help?

Kelsey's idea re: post 2700 shootoff but leaving 2700 Champs intact sounds real good! More shooting has been well accepted, witness DR, etc.

Thanks Denny for all the information. It's very good for us to hear frank talk from the NRA!! Also encourage ideas from the shooters.....surely there are some marketing, promoter types among us.

Ron Habegger

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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by Colt711 on 4/2/2016, 6:57 pm

National Champs Shootoff                                                                         Consideration might be given to inviting several champs from other persuasions. The invitation possibly good for 1 time and the shooter would have to qualify thru the 2700 in any following yrs.

Rather than 10 from each class, choose a smaller number for elgibility and make Regional winners elgible providing they meet certain qualifiers such as Regional size, winners score etc.

Ron Habegger


Last edited by Colt711 on 4/2/2016, 8:25 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : 3/2/16 grammar, clarity)

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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by Wobbley on 4/2/2016, 8:01 pm

Way way back when in the early 1980s, some organization put on a high power match at Camp Perry called "The Masters".  Eligibility was based on classification (Master or High Master) AND must have won a regional within the last few years.  Supposed to have big money prizes.  Don't know if there was any significant entry but there wasn't a repeat event.  So this sort of thing has been done.  Perhaps it can be resurrected in pistol?

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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by KelseyECS on 4/3/2016, 12:13 am

I participate in other sport that have a national invitational based upon performance during an established 12 month period.  It dramatically increases participation in local events as many people try to qualify for the invitational.

As a thought, the high competitor in any registered match would earn an entry into the national invitational (perhaps excluding competitors who had already won their invitation, somewhat similar to EIC's).  Perhaps also some regional invitational championships based upon the same or a similar system (maybe points earned for finishing in the top three of a registered match within that region). 

I'd expect more and better attended registered matches as competitors try to qualify.  It does work in other sports.  Higher end club competitors as well as elite competitors would have something to work towards.

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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by Wobbley on 4/3/2016, 6:17 am

It could be done especially with certain specified "qualifying events" like specific named regionals.  Particularly if it wasn't limited to the winners and went down to the high and second in each class.  With bigger prizes and each class getting to shoot on the same relay it might be doable.  Now just to iron out the details and get sponsors?

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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by DirComp on 4/3/2016, 2:20 pm

There are a couple of things that I've looked at to change the pace.  First, the Nationals could become an invitational.  You would earn a place at the Nationals based on performance at local, regional, and stat championships.  It would make the Nationals more prestigious, would increase attendance at the lower levels, and it would be a source of pride just to receive that invite.  No classes excluded.

The second item, is a just for fun item, and it's a team match.  All two-person teams.  Anyone wishing to participate lets the stat office know.  The Stat Office makes the pairings.  High Masters are paired with Marksman, Masters are paired with Sharpshooters, and Experts are paired with Experts.  There is only one class and that's Expert.  This could be extended to 4 person teams if desired.

Denny

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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by SMBeyer on 4/3/2016, 5:57 pm

I like the idea of the 2 man teams!  Especially if you are squaded on the same bench.  It would be a great way to meet new people and have some fun.

Scott
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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by Wobbley on 4/3/2016, 6:01 pm

And get sone quality coaching at the same time.  

How many invitations would you send out?

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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/3/2016, 10:48 pm

I like the 2 man team idea!
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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by s1120 on 4/4/2016, 4:44 am

DirComp wrote:
The second item, is a just for fun item, and it's a team match.  All two-person teams.  Anyone wishing to participate lets the stat office know.  The Stat Office makes the pairings.  High Masters are paired with Marksman, Masters are paired with Sharpshooters, and Experts are paired with Experts.  There is only one class and that's Expert.  This could be extended to 4 person teams if desired.

Denny

What a great opportunity for the Marksman,or sharpshooters! And a special thanks to the Masters, and High masters that take it on!

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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by DirComp on 4/4/2016, 7:42 am

Details on how an invitational Nationals are yet to be determined.  I really don't know if this would even fly with competitors.  It's just an idea I have on how to make the Nationals more prestigious.  The first step would be to determine how many competitors we should host and go from there.

I'll look at the schedule and see what we can do with the 2-person team match.  It won't happen this year because we don't have the Stat software built but maybe 2017.  CMP is also trying to expand their offerings so the calendar is getting crowded.

Denny

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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by JIMPGOV on 4/4/2016, 11:13 am

The second item, is a just for fun item, and it's a team match.  All two-person teams.  Anyone wishing to participate lets the stat office know.  The Stat Office makes the pairings.  High Masters are paired with Marksman, Masters are paired with Sharpshooters, and Experts are paired with Experts.  There is only one class and that's Expert.  This could be extended to 4 person teams if desired.

Denny

THIS WAS DONE AT THE NATIONAL POLICE PISTOL CHAMPIONSHIP FOR A FEW YEARS. IT WAS CALLED THE X-TEAM MATCH. IT WAS A GREAT FUN MATCH ( I DID WIN IT ONE YEAR). YOU WERE MADE AN EXPERT TEAM. A GREAT WAY FOR THE NEW OR LESS TALENTED PERSON TO RUB SHOULDERS WITH THE TOP GUYS. IT WAS SCORED WITH THE LEWIS SYSTEM. TOP TEAMS AND I BELIEVE  EVERY 1/4 ON THE WAY DOWN WERE WINNERS. ONE YEAR THE WINNERS AND CLASS WINNERS WON ROCK RIVER 1911'S. IT HAD A LARGE TURN OUT.  IT WAS DROPPED DUE TO SCHEDULE TIME CONSTRAINTS. JP

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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by DirComp on 4/4/2016, 12:29 pm

Jim,

The X Team is where the idea came from.  I wanted to try to apply it to Precision.  Here again, the schedule is the problem.  Perhaps this can take the place of the 3-person team match on Preliminary day or be shot following the 3-Person team match.

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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by Ghillieman on 4/4/2016, 3:59 pm

What ever is decided on should be geared towards being spectator friendly and getting tv time and sponsorships.
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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/4/2016, 4:27 pm

What ever is decided on should be geared towards being spectator friendly and getting tv time and sponsorships.

The sport is what it is. It's like golf, yet that has tv appeal. Creative folks need to apply the TV appeal and sponsorship appeal to our sport, not change the sport to fit the TV.

When you watch golf, the camera doesn't show every shot for every competitor. They only show the good shots and the bad shots for the golfers at the top of the leaderboard.

This isn't hard to do for our sport by putting a camera facing the shooter and a second one viewing the target. The production crew shows the good, the bad, and the ugly while the commentators describe what they are seeing for each string. After each string of fire, the production crew puts up a graphic of the leaderboard, talks for a few minutes, then goes to commercial--that's where the sponsorships come in!

If you are talking about live TV, there is plenty of time for the commentators to talk while the shooters are scoring, but I envision a production of all of the noteworthy action condensed into a 60 minute show with plenty of commercials to generate revenue. It probably wont be on ESPN but I really don't think it's such a stretch....
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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by Doug Hall on 4/4/2016, 9:08 pm

USPSA has an invitation / Lottery and it really pisses of the competitors. You can be on top of your game and it is only random if you go to the dance. When you miss a year you tend to give up the sport. Life is short. I would bet most National competitors are already active at the local ranges practicing for Nationals. Requiring qualifying would probably only drop a small number from eligibility. Without a guaranteed seat some may not participate at all? I wouldn't. This would be one way to make Nationals come to a quick end.

I don't go to win (if you have seen me shoot you know that is true), it is for the people. The Bullseye group is a blast to hang out with. My favorite time is at lunch at the picnic tables meeting new friends and hearing more stories. Larry's picnic is the same way but indoors would be a better experience. I just wish we had a building and facilities to keep everyone on the grounds and things to do and hang out.

P.S. I have enough personal MUD stories, I don't need any more of those "no wake zones" in my lifetime.

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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by john bickar on 4/4/2016, 10:18 pm

DirComp wrote:This year at the Bianchi Cup, I can guarantee you that the last two competitors firing will be the #1 and #2 competitors in the championship and they will be vying for the Bianchi Cup Champion ... Crowds will gather and it will be an exciting finish.

Yes, exciting. This year, like every one of the past 20 years, will the Bianchi Cup Champion be Doug Koenig, or Bruce Piatt???

I can't wait to not watch it on a cable channel that I don't subscribe to. Those sponsors sure are grabbing my eyeballs.

I don't mean to denigrate any Bianchi Cup competitors, because they are truly awesome shooters, but comparing Bianchi Cup and Camp Perry is comparing apples to wheelbarrows.

You know who else are awesome shooters? The top competitors at Camp Perry. Which leads me to:

Rob Kovach wrote:The sport is what it is.  It's like golf, yet that has tv appeal.  Creative folks need to apply the TV appeal and sponsorship appeal to our sport, not change the sport to fit the TV.

Exactly!

Doug Hall wrote:USPSA has an invitation / Lottery and it really pisses of the competitors. You can be on top of your game and it is only random if you go to the dance. When you miss a year you tend to give up the sport. Life is short. I would bet most National competitors are already active at the local ranges practicing for Nationals. Requiring qualifying would probably only drop a small number from eligibility. Without a guaranteed seat some may not participate at all? I wouldn't. This would be one way to make Nationals come to a quick end.

This is a great post because: A) It's completely wrong about being able to compete in the USAS Nationals (in fact, anyone who pays the entry fee can participate); yet B) It represents the fundamental disconnect between USAS and the rank-and-file shooter.

The USAS "Preliminary Try-Out" (PTO) system has been in place as long as I've been a member (1994, member #66), yet they've never enforced quotas at USASNC in the past 22 years. Yet this perception persists, because they've never done anything to dispel that notion.

All it does, as Doug Hall correctly notes, is discourage participation at the local level.
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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by Wobbley on 4/5/2016, 12:12 am

Does the perception of the Nationals Being "invitation only" discourage participation at the local level; or is it the inherent difficulty of the sport and the resulting failure to progress in skill quickly enough?

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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/5/2016, 1:13 pm

Making the Nationals an invitational event would be a huge mistake. Let's just stop discussing that right now. It wouldn't make it more prestigious at all. Just a bad idea.
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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by jglenn21 on 4/5/2016, 6:54 pm

agreed... one of the better things about our sport is being able to shoot next to some of the best shots in the world and you can be any class shooter... Perry is an experience no matter what you end up shooting..



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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by Doug Hall on 4/5/2016, 7:25 pm

I stand by my previous characterization of the USPSA as a invitation / lottery and it caused much pain. See thread below. If they had a venue to hold more they probably would.

http://www.doodieproject.com/index.php?/topic/2037-why-is-it-so-hard-to-shoot-at-nationals/page-3

How would vendors like the fact they would have a limited customer base. Many would not make the trip.

I agree with Rob, it is just a bad idea.

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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by 9146gt on 4/5/2016, 7:30 pm

john bickar wrote:
DirComp wrote:This year at the Bianchi Cup, I can guarantee you that the last two competitors firing will be the #1 and #2 competitors in the championship and they will be vying for the Bianchi Cup Champion ... Crowds will gather and it will be an exciting finish.

Yes, exciting. This year, like every one of the past 20 years, will the Bianchi Cup Champion be Doug Koenig, or Bruce Piatt???

I can't wait to not watch it on a cable channel that I don't subscribe to. Those sponsors sure are grabbing my eyeballs.

I don't mean to denigrate any Bianchi Cup competitors, because they are truly awesome shooters, but comparing Bianchi Cup and Camp Perry is comparing apples to wheelbarrows.

You know who else are awesome shooters? The top competitors at Camp Perry. Which leads me to:

Rob Kovach wrote:The sport is what it is.  It's like golf, yet that has tv appeal.  Creative folks need to apply the TV appeal and sponsorship appeal to our sport, not change the sport to fit the TV.

Exactly!

Doug Hall wrote:USPSA has an invitation / Lottery and it really pisses of the competitors. You can be on top of your game and it is only random if you go to the dance. When you miss a year you tend to give up the sport. Life is short. I would bet most National competitors are already active at the local ranges practicing for Nationals. Requiring qualifying would probably only drop a small number from eligibility. Without a guaranteed seat some may not participate at all? I wouldn't. This would be one way to make Nationals come to a quick end.

This is a great post because: A) It's completely wrong about being able to compete in the USAS Nationals (in fact, anyone who pays the entry fee can participate); yet B) It represents the fundamental disconnect between USAS and the rank-and-file shooter.

The USAS "Preliminary Try-Out" (PTO) system has been in place as long as I've been a member (1994, member #66), yet they've never enforced quotas at USASNC in the past 22 years. Yet this perception persists, because they've never done anything to dispel that notion.

All it does, as Doug Hall correctly notes, is discourage participation at the local level.
Better check the results for Bianchi cup winners!!!

Tom

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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

Post by Wobbley on 4/5/2016, 8:56 pm

If the invitational is out, then perhaps after the 2700 an 1800 (22 and 45) could be shot to determine the champion. 

The high power championship is three 800 point regional aggregates shot over four days.  The pistol nationals are the same course as a regional: one 2700 point aggregate.

After the 2700 there would be a cut.  The top ten (maybe 15) in each class and category and the top twenty overall would continue.  All would fire in the same relay.  The total combined score wins.

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Re: Awards System Changes at Nationals

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