What is the likely cause of this pattern?

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What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by trotterlg on Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:00 am

First topic message reminder :

Shot my first 900 match (22 RF, all 25 yards turning targets) Shot a 770.  This match and all my practice targets exhibit the same pattern, a pronounced egg shape with the pointy ends at 1:30 and 7:30.  Every target nearly the same.  I am an old guy shooting iron sights and right handed.  I have shrunk the group size to nothing out of the 5 ring but the same pattern persists.  Thanks for any insight you may have.  Larry

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by Rob Kovach on Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:29 pm

John,

Since this is a new shooter, I don't want to over-complicate his learning curve by having his elevation changing due to the difference in size of the black between those targets and the official bullseye targets.

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by john bickar on Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:14 am

Fair enough, but is the OP shooting center hold or sub-six?

I would argue that the international rapid fire target is the best for teaching pure sight alignment. Even better than a blank target face.

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by Jon Eulette on Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:32 am

john bickar wrote:Fair enough, but is the OP shooting center hold or sub-six?

I would argue that the international rapid fire target is the best for teaching pure sight alignment. Even better than a blank target face.

Yep! I believe dry firing on blank wall is beneficial but never had much belief in blank back of target. Int. RF target is excellent tool, but I know my old eyes struggle to see anything center hold because of black target. Mr. Bickar has nailed it!
Jon

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by trotterlg on Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:36 am

When I shot the competition I held at 6, the black bull was small on them at 25 yards.  With the reduced size targets I hold on center, it is indoor and I can see the front sight easily.  Not really worried about where they go, just where the center of the group is, I can always move it.  The sights are adjustable, but not click stops, so they are a pain to change.  If you look at the first target I think the group is slightly high which reflects the hold at zero.  Larry

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by Jon Eulette on Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:08 am

Larry,
What kind of pistol are you using?
Jon

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by trotterlg on Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:15 am

China knockoff of a Walther


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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by Jon Eulette on Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:16 pm

What spurred me to ask was your statement about non click adjustable sights. If you are not using a pistol with quality sights, trigger pull, etc, It's hard to expect good results. I don't know how capable your pistol is of actually shooting good groups even if a high master shot it. So basically your pistol can/could be holding you back. I personally will not shoot a pistol that isn't match quality. I expect a lot from a pistol. I want bad shots to be my fault, never the guns. So you might consider upgrading ot some trigger work if you even think you are being limited by your pistol.
Jon

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by trotterlg on Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:54 pm

Trigger breaks at 39 to 40 Ounces with my pull gauge.  The sights look good, they are just a pain to adjust, I did have to make the rear notch a tiny bit wider so as to have a little white on both sides.  Trigger Feels as good as a Timney I have on my 20 Swift, with that rifle I can put 20 inside a quarter at 100 yards, but that is whole different skill set.  Larry

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by LenV on Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:06 pm

Just to satisfy the curious. If you get a chance maybe you could sandbag the pistol and see what kind of groups it will shoot. That would eliminate any suspicion of the inherit accuracy of the pistol. Its worth a look.

Len

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by Rob Kovach on Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:19 pm

Larry Leutenegger just posted on the facebook page that he's shooting one of those also!

What kind of pistol is that?

...oh, and Larry, if you are Larry Leutenegger, you don't need any coaching from me....

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by trotterlg on Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:33 pm

I am the "other Larry" I guess.  These were made in China in the late 70's and early 80's, mine is one of the early ones, serial number in the 400 range.  They were imported by various companies, Norinco Olympia is what mine is called but they were also from "China Small Arms" and likely some others.  A knockoff of an Olympic Walther, most parts interchange with them.  Larry

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by jmdavis on Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:14 pm

I've shot the Norinco version. Other than the sights it is pretty good. The one that I tried will shoot x ring if the shooter can do it. The sights are not easy for me to see without a BRIGHT sight light.

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by trotterlg on Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:53 pm

Thank you for all the suggestions.  I have worked on doing some strength training for a week or so just holding my arem extended holding a 4 pound weight.  I put a total of 100 rounds in these two targets today, the 25 yard simulated rapid fire pistol target at 10 yards, it does look like things are starting to come together, at least the pattern is round now.  Larry

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by Wobbley on Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:56 pm

The shift in center of mass for the groups is shifting the grip position differently, and we all struggle with that from time to time.  Use your free hand to place the gun in your hand and do it consistently.

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by rich.tullo on Tue May 17, 2016 1:13 pm

I would not shoot so many shoots without a feedback loop. Measured by Group size , score , # of Xs ect.....

I shoot ten shots SF write down my score and repeat repeat 5x if I am working on SF. If you find yourself getting worse after 20 rounds end the session or change the gun or course of fire. 

Usually I will shoot two slow fires. They can be on the same target -shoot ten then score then shoot ten. 

If slow fire is at the high end of my scores then I will shoot one more SF and shoot a 900 or finish up with 1 timed and 1 rapid string. The decision is based on how much ammo I have and how much work I need to do on CF/45acp, 

If my sustained fire was off in my prior match I will shoot just one Slow Fire on a Rapid fire repair center, which the goal of shooting 10x, Usually I get 98 4 to 6x. I then practice sustained fire with a cooking timer. 

I never shoot much more than 100 rounds in practice unless I am zeroing and testing a new gun, or looking to get rid of Ammo that is not printing well for matches. In most cases 100 rounds is more than enough. 

My Dad once said shooting too much can make you a bad shot. 

RT

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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

Post by trotterlg on Fri May 20, 2016 7:26 pm

I think things are starting to tighten up some now.  I have continued holding out the weight at night and am getting more steady the longer I work at it.  Shot this today, 24 rounds, as I calculate it this target at 20 feet roughly simulates the 25 meter bulls eye target.  Larry


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Re: What is the likely cause of this pattern?

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