Kart 9mm Barrels

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Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/2/2016, 12:49 am

I rebarrelled a 9mm ppc pistol recently for a top level shooter. We changed it over from 1:32 twist KKM to 1:16 twist Kart. Ransom rested today and had good session. Had 2 different brands of ammo at 1" @ 50 yds; Atlanta Arms 115 gr and Hornady 115 gr XTP. 
KKM barrel has short throat similar to rifle. Kart has typical SAAMI style throat. Kart has less felt recoil. Is it because throat (more jump and gas blow by), bore diameter (KKM probably 0.001" tighter)? Both barrels similarly fit. Kart handled lighter loads well from hand. KKM didn't like reduced loads. Based on today's rest results and shooting from hand Kart looks darn good. I'm going to be busy rebarrelling pistols in near future.
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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by RThatcher on 4/2/2016, 8:15 am

I have a 9 built by Bob Marvel with a Kart barrel.It is a sub one inch gun that I am very pleased with. I do have a question. Have you noticed it being very sensitive to the COAL. The reason I ask is during the powder shortage I went to Atlanta Arms XTP load. This load shot very well except for the first round of the magazine. This shot would be 3 to 4 inches low. It drove me crazy for a number of months before I realized that this was due to the length of the loaded round. I had always loaded to 1.120 and the Atlanta Arms was much shorter. I do not know if this is a Kart issue or a chamber issue as I do not know who cut the chamber.
Thanks Russ

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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by C.Perkins on 4/2/2016, 1:41 pm

I loaded up some 115gr XTP's a couple weeks ago but have not had a chance to test them.
While setting up my dies and using my KKM barrel for plunk and measurements noticed that at about 1.087" COL the ogive was just touching the lands.
Normally I use Sierra TM 115gr FMJ and seat to 1.127".
The XTP's need to be a bit shorter in COL.
I loaded mine to 1.080" COL

Just something to think about when changing components.

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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by james r chapman on 4/2/2016, 1:57 pm

Barrels are like women, each has a different personality.
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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/2/2016, 3:33 pm

3 to 4 inch flyers in my opinion/experience are user error with rest. Ransom is almost an art to use.
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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by RThatcher on 4/2/2016, 7:55 pm

I do not use a ransom rest. Thank you for you time...

Russ

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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/2/2016, 8:56 pm

Russ,
I asked a couple shooters I know who shoots tons of 9mm in match pistols. They haven't experienced that. If the load shoots well its consistent. I'll keep my eyes open to that possibility. We have a load that shoots well in other guns and shot 3" groups in this gun. So we have some load development to do for particular bullet. By the way, 1" from hand using rest is great, I can't do it Smile
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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/2/2016, 10:02 pm

Russ,
Another thought....oal affects feeding. Tip of bullet will hit feedramp different for differing oal. Bob Marvel started cutting disconnector ramp for smoother cycling....got rid of speed bump that some pistols will have more than others. Result is more consistent groups at 50. Some 45 mags are good for ball only but not wad. 1st round and last round out of magazine are typically flyers. That's why most people change magazine with 5th round left in chamber so that round 6 (1st from new mag) loads without human involvement (hand cycling slide; cause of flyers). Result is less flyers and tighter 10 shot groups. So maybe your oal was affecting 1st shot because of feeding/cycling. In my experience 1st & 5th round flyers are high. Food for thought.
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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by RThatcher on 4/3/2016, 7:19 am

Jon
To this day do not know why I see this issue with shorter ammo that is the reason that I asked the question I have tried every magazine that I can get my hands on with no change (more that 10). You are absolutely correct about human involvement as that is what i see. The odd thing is when I cycle the slide, that round will drop about 3.5 inches straight down. I have many targets with two outstanding groups. One at the point of aim and one at 6 o'clock depending on when I cycle the slide.This happens every time not at random. The fix to this problem was load to 1.120 with the XTP. At this length I get about .005 engagement with the lands.  I have never seen anything this dramatic yet consistent out of any firearm.
Thanks Again,
Russ

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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/3/2016, 6:55 pm

1st match shot today with this pistol and Kart barrel combo. Also 1st match for competitor since September and only shooting pistol twice since rebuild. 1485-100X. Cleaned shortline (25yds and closer). Not too bad!
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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by robert84010 on 4/4/2016, 9:31 am

Jon,
do they allow non law enforcement shoot the PPC matches in San Diego?
thanks.

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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/4/2016, 10:26 am

LEO only.
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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by Magnusbullets on 4/4/2016, 10:29 am

Russ, seems that I remember someone here, used a small spacer at the back of the mag to push short rounds forward a little.
I know a guy who uses one in his 300 blackout with a lead cast bullets to stop feeding issues

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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by james r chapman on 4/4/2016, 11:12 am

Jon Eulette wrote:LEO only.
Jon

NRA LEO PPC

NRA also has Civilian 1500, if they'd get their act together they'd both increase participation in a dying but fun sport.
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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/4/2016, 11:25 am

From what I understand, all the matches out here won't let civilians shoot.
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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by robert84010 on 4/4/2016, 12:01 pm

james r chapman wrote:
Jon Eulette wrote:LEO only.
Jon

NRA LEO PPC

NRA also has Civilian 1500, if they'd get their act together they'd both increase participation in a dying but fun sport.
Jim,
that is part of the problem, nobody runs the PPC portion of action pistol. They seem to run the other courses of fire only from what I have seen. Even those matches are hard to find. Everyone just shoots IDPA or USPSA in my area. The NRA is killing PPC by not allowing non LEO, they should allow anybody EXCEPT at the National's. I know that some match directors allow it, and the NRA PPC comp director doesn't care if non LEO participate but since that is not in the rulebook match directors don't allow us. A shame really, it's a fun course of fire because of the accuracy required.

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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by igolfat8 on 4/6/2016, 5:49 pm

Jon,
Why did he choose to shoot a 9mm over a .45? Is there an advantage with the 9mm for this discipline or is a 9mm required? Does the 9mm recoil less or does it have less muzzle rise or easier to get back on target?

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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/6/2016, 6:19 pm

9mm is most common caliber. Most PD's supply it. I have built him a matching 45 pistol, we are still seeing what works best.  Since he is supported with 9mm the 9 is good option. I've shot both pistols side by side and 9mm is recoiling slightly less than the 45. His 45 barrel is picky and needs a little more velocity to group well at 50 yds. My similar pistol will group with .4 less powder which recoils less than the 9 does. We're spending quite a bit of time trying to see whats going to be the winning combo. 
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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by Jerry Keefer on 4/6/2016, 7:52 pm

We ran PPC matches here in VA for quite a few years. Regional, State and Local matches, were both LE and civilian.  The civilian enter fees went to supply awards within that category. Civilians were not eligible for NRA awards nor did their scores count toward classification. We appointed a civilian chairman  to oversee classifications and awards.
9mm is very competitive within the PPC game.. I never personally used 9mm, in PPC,  but I did quite well with the 45, before the 9mm craze.. The 45 will do very well..Good 9s will frequently  go under an inch.. That's extremely rare in a 45..
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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by igolfat8 on 4/6/2016, 8:46 pm

Jerry,
When you say "Good 9's" can I assume those are heavily BE Smith'd guns and not production models? What production guns have you seen are good bases to build from? RO?

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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by james r chapman on 4/7/2016, 7:03 am

igolfat8 wrote:Jerry,
When you say "Good 9's" can I assume those are heavily BE Smith'd guns and not production models? What production guns have you seen are good bases to build from? RO?

About like the .45's I'd imagine.
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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/7/2016, 9:12 am

RO is fine for 9!
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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by Jerry Keefer on 4/7/2016, 9:32 am

Definition of "Good."  Well built, reliable, and supremely accurate. There are many functional  bullseye and PPC guns..but, there is a select group of guns that stand alone. Good refers to those that are exceptional in every regard..
Not all frames and slides are created equal.. At one time, I thought the sun rose and set on one manufacturer, but fame and fortune soon degraded quality control, and I no longer use that system.. Doesn't mean that the present product has not recovered, and quality has returned.. Some batches of product can  vary from the previous, or present. The key to ending up with a exceptionally accurate gun, is starting with an exceptional foundation.. The old stand by statement, "Barrel fit is everything." can only happen if the frame / slide foundation is premium to start with..
The only advantage to a 9mm, in my opinion, is good 9mm's will shoot inch or less  @ 50..( which is better than the average .22 BE gun.)  No 45 has yet, been able to do that.
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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by robert84010 on 4/7/2016, 10:14 am

Jerry Keefer wrote:We ran PPC matches here in VA for quite a few years. Regional, State and Local matches, were both LE and civilian.  The civilian enter fees went to supply awards within that category. Civilians were not eligible for NRA awards nor did their scores count toward classification. We appointed a civilian chairman  to oversee classifications and awards.
9mm is very competitive within the PPC game.. I never personally used 9mm, in PPC,  but I did quite well with the 45, before the 9mm craze.. The 45 will do very well..Good 9s will frequently  go under an inch.. That's extremely rare in a 45..
That's my point, some ranges let civilians shoot. Most don't because the rule book does not say they can so match director's think they are not allowed. I have an email from the PPC director of competitions stating he doesn't care, the score cards are not turned in and he doesn't hold it against MD's if they allow it, the few MD's out west don't care to hear it. 
Plus, as you point out, the entry fees could be put to good use by the MD's for local causes'. Many civilians want to shoot PPC instead of IDPA, which is booming with participation far beyond what PPC has been for many, many years. They are letting PPC die on the vine by refusing to change with the times. With all the pistol training available today, including high level tactics, to anybody that wants to pay, it seems genuinely pigheaded that the NRA will not budge on officially allowing civilian shooters to participate, at a minimum, in local PPC matches or regional's to get distinguished points. 

Canada and parts of Europe allow it and I don't hear about any rampant crime waves by civilian PPC shooters.

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Re: Kart 9mm Barrels

Post by Jerry Keefer on 4/7/2016, 10:57 am

robert84010 wrote:
Canada and parts of Europe allow it and I don't hear about any rampant crime waves by civilian PPC shooters.
The decline of PPC began with the Branch Davidian episode..The NRA made reference to the ATF as "Jack Booted Thugs".. That did it.. The largest PPC match outside of the Nationals, was Beltsville, MD at the Secret Service training facility..President Bush, immediately stopped all NRA shooting on government facilities.. The Police Chiefs all over the country began cutting back on supported marksmanship programs.. The department shooting teams were dis banded.. It has never recovered in the politically correct climate. It's very tough, as in nearly impossible, for the average cop to support an aggressive shooting  schedule on his/her income.. Hence the days of nearly a thousand cops shooting the Nationals, will never return..
One other item that prevented civilians at police matches, was undercover / narcotics officers  being in the company of civilians, should they by chance be later IDed on the street...remote, but possible..
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