I don't like recoil.

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I don't like recoil.

Post by Tim:H11 on Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

I'm using 4.0 gr of Bullseye with a 200 gr LSWC. It's got a fair amount of recoil to it. I'm shooting iron sights only and I'm using an 18.5 pound recoil spring, and 19 pound hammer apring. The gun and Ammo shoots good but it recoils a good bit. Something im not used to. I here people using words like "light target loads". This is not a light load I feel. It's as good as facotory felt recoil. Any way to get rid of some of the recoil?

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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by kc.crawford.7 on Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:59 pm

Going up in poundage on the mainspring equates to approximately 2oz. per pound on the trigger pull weight.  So going up 4 pounds would equal about .5 pounds in your trigger pull.  That can very easily be adjusted with the sear spring.  As Jon said the mechanical advantage of the small radius firing pin stop increases the energy required to cock the hammer because it's contacting the hammer much lower than a "standard" firing pin stop with a factory radius.

The combination of a heavier mainspring and a small radius firing pin stop increases the amount of energy required to get the slide to the rear.  The recoil springs only function is to return the slide into battery.  When you increase the amount of energy to cock the hammer you're taking energy away from the slide so there is not as much "felt" recoil in your hand.

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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by jglenn21 on Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:13 pm

does sound strange but it works.. I have the EGW on all my 1911s. with either radius depending upon the pistol use.


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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by DavidR on Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:54 pm

I haven't found it does much for lighter bullseye loads like it does on a true hardball gun w/230fmjs

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Recoil

Post by ash on Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:59 pm

Like Jon mentioned,  the felt recoil on a properly built 1911 is much less than older BE wad guns.
I am breaking in a complete new build by Jon. The lock up is super tight but the gun is a pleasure to shoot with 200grLSWC/4.0grBE.
Slide mounted scope & 12#recoil spring.
The same load feels a little hot on a previous Colt build.
ash

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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by BE Mike on Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:35 pm

Back in the old days when leg points were earned by shooting hardball .45ACP, shooting ball was the only way to get there. I know that when I was shooting hardball heavily, on the hunt for legs, I was shooting the centerfire and .45 parts of the 2700 with a ball gun and ammo. When I went back to a wad gun, that ten seconds felt like a long time and the 3 1/2 pound trigger felt like a 2 pounder. I'm not adverse to reducing recoil, but there is only so much that can be done. In the end, one will have to deal with some recoil and noise. Desensitizing is a valid tactic.  I also think that keeping the hand, shoulder and arm strong while keeping the tendons well stretched and warmed up before shooting tends to ward off shooter's elbow.

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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by C.Perkins on Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:43 pm

Question;

Would keeping the firing pin retainer flat with out a radius cause any issues ?

Clarence

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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by Jon Eulette on Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:51 pm

No. Just more cocking effort.
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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by C.Perkins on Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:05 pm

Thanks Jon;

Will be doing an experiment now Smile

Clarence

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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:16 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:No. Just more cocking effort.
Jon

you can always cock the hammer before you rack the slide.
I have to do that at the beginning of a match or practice session for some of my delicate friends.

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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by Jon Eulette on Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:27 pm



you can always cock the hammer before you rack the slide.
I have to do that at the beginning of a match or practice session for some of my delicate friends.
I was 99% referring to when pistol was recoiling from firing. Light loads that once worked might not function pistol now.
Jon

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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by C.Perkins on Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:44 pm

I do not believe that it will malfunction with my standard load of 4.6 gr of B.E. under a 185 gr Nosler or 185 gr Hornady button nose.

And Steve, if it gets that hard to rack the slide then I will cock the hammer first Smile

Clarence

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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by igolfat8 on Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:58 am

ash wrote:Like Jon mentioned,  the felt recoil on a properly built 1911 is much less than older BE wad guns.
I am breaking in a complete new build by Jon. The lock up is super tight but the gun is a pleasure to shoot with 200grLSWC/4.0grBE.
Slide mounted scope & 12#recoil spring.
The same load feels a little hot on a previous Colt build.
ash
Out of curiosity, what is the weight of the main spring?

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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by Jon Eulette on Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:24 am

The mainspring is 19 pounds.
Jon

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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by igolfat8 on Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:58 am

ash wrote:The lock up is super tight 
ash

Thanks for the info Jon.

Having not ever shot or handled a custom high grade BE gun can you describe in more detail your statement above? Is the gun more difficult to get into battery due to tighter fitting tolerances than say an off the shelf factory production built gun? As I understand lock up is the precise fit of engagement between the barrel and slide lugs. One can rock the slide to feel the slide to frame fit, wiggle the barrel to feel the bushing fit or feel the quality of the trigger and so on... but how does one "feel" that condition by just handling the pistol? Or do you have to disassemble the pistol and examine those fits in that state?

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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by Jon Eulette on Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:22 pm

Not a simple question to answer. Basically that pistol has as close to zero tolerance fit of frame/slide. Barrel to bushing is very closely fit with snug bushing to slide fit. Barrel hood has minimal side to side fit and rear of hood has less than 0.0015" clearance with slide. Barrel snapped out of battery with thumb pressure when it was finished being built; so its right on the money (will loosen slightly after about 200 rds).  Bottom lugs keep barrel in battery at least 0.100" when slide is moving to rear during recoil. Typical Les Baer lugs are wedge fit and barrel stays in battery for 0.015" if you're lucky. If really experienced you can see majority of these things without disassembling pistol. Taking it apart shows real story.
Hope this helps.
Jon

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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by jglenn21 on Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:11 pm

"Bottom lugs keep barrel in battery at least 0.100" when slide is moving to rear during recoil"

Jon, I think this is one of the biggest changes to the current wad guns verses what I learned in the late 60s. a big contributor to the recoil feel.


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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by rich.tullo on Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:27 pm

My 2 cents 

My Dad made master shooting 200gn BNSWC Swagged and 3.5 bulls-eye from a 1911 and 3.4 from a revolver on the short line. Iron sights. 

In addition to load, 4.0 should not be bad, I would check you primers, I loaded rifles primers once and they were a bit hot. Your scale, they can be off and you would not notice a 1th or two. 

OAL for an hg 68 S/B 1.23 to 1.25 

Tapper S/B .469 to .4715 

Going from 1.22 to 1.24 could make that bullet shoot a lot better. 


People say the best accuracy is from a bullet that travels fast but I suspect the 45ACP like many rifle bullets has a bi modal accuracy distribution where tight groups are available at around 690 FPS and and 775 FPS give or take 1 SDV. also the last batch of BE I shot seemed to be a bit more temperature sensitive then I remembered, under 50 degrees it was hotter than it is now. 

I would try 3.5 BE and see how you and your gun likes it, alternatively 3.8/3.9 GN BE under a Zero 185 HPSWC (OAL 1.215 to 1.23) is a pretty soft load.

Also if you can hold a 3.5 BE load better than a 4.0 load then the points you save by not shooting 5s or 6s will offset the Xs and 10s you lose. There is a reason why some people shoot 9mms and 38s but a 45acp at light loads will be just as comfortable as a snappy 9mm and you get a bigger hole. yes you will lose 1/2 to 1.5 inches of accuracy at 50 yards but with a good gun you can still hold the 9 (5 inches) or 10 ring (3 Inches) theoretically.

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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by Tim:H11 on Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:54 pm

I'm gonna give an update here in a couple days. I ace some new loads and springs ready to try. Won't be until Saturday. Will keep you posted.

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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by Jon Eulette on Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:40 am

I just got back from shooting. I drive about 6 miles from my house and shoot in the boonies, so I have 24/7 access to a couple good spots. I was snickering as I was driving home and thinking about this post. I built a 45 a couple months ago and owner wanted a different scope mount. Mounted a Marvel rib. Pistol is JEM frame with Caspian slide and Kart barrel. Optics are UD Match Dot with B-Square rings. 10# recoil spring and 19# mainspring. Slide snaps out of battery without having to kill yourself. Has maybe 300 rounds through it. I was shooting some left over 4.0 and 4.2 gr 700x loads with both 180 & 200 gr lswc. These are honest 50 yd loads. Brass was ejecting 1-2 ft to my right. Very soft shooting pistol. The barrel really slows the slide down a lot the way it's fit. A typical BE pistol with this spring and load combination would launch the brass into its own orbit around the earth :l)
All kidding aside, the barrel fit has a huge effect on felt recoil. Makes it a lot easier to focus on the dot and trigger squeeze too!
Jon

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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by Tim:H11 on Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:47 am

Jon Eulette wrote:I just got back from shooting. I drive about 6 miles from my house and shoot in the boonies, so I have 24/7 access to a couple good spots. I was snickering as I was driving home and thinking about this post. I built a 45 a couple months ago and owner wanted a different scope mount. Mounted a Marvel rib. Pistol is JEM frame with Caspian slide and Kart barrel. Optics are UD Match Dot with B-Square rings. 10# recoil spring and 19# mainspring. Slide snaps out of battery without having to kill yourself. Has maybe 300 rounds through it. I was shooting some left over 4.0 and 4.2 gr 700x loads with both 180 & 200 gr lswc. These are honest 50 yd loads. Brass was ejecting 1-2 ft to my right. Very soft shooting pistol. The barrel really slows the slide down a lot the way it's fit. A typical BE pistol with this spring and load combination would launch the brass into its own orbit around the earth :l)
All kidding aside, the barrel fit has a huge effect on felt recoil. Makes it a lot easier to focus on the dot and trigger squeeze too!
Jon

You just wait until the winter or spring and my gun will be on your bench soon enough! lol!

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Re: I don't like recoil.

Post by cjon600 on Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:00 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:I just got back from shooting. I drive about 6 miles from my house and shoot in the boonies, so I have 24/7 access to a couple good spots. I was snickering as I was driving home and thinking about this post. I built a 45 a couple months ago and owner wanted a different scope mount. Mounted a Marvel rib. Pistol is JEM frame with Caspian slide and Kart barrel. Optics are UD Match Dot with B-Square rings. 10# recoil spring and 19# mainspring. Slide snaps out of battery without having to kill yourself. Has maybe 300 rounds through it. I was shooting some left over 4.0 and 4.2 gr 700x loads with both 180 & 200 gr lswc. These are honest 50 yd loads. Brass was ejecting 1-2 ft to my right. Very soft shooting pistol. The barrel really slows the slide down a lot the way it's fit. A typical BE pistol with this spring and load combination would launch the brass into its own orbit around the earth :l)
All kidding aside, the barrel fit has a huge effect on felt recoil. Makes it a lot easier to focus on the dot and trigger squeeze too!
Jon

Hello Jon, could you be more specific?
Barrel fitting into the slide recesses or barrel fitment into the barrel bushing? 

 I too would like a softer shooting 45. My recoil management is horrible during timed/rapid. 

-Cjon

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Re: I don't like recoil.

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