COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

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COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by Super Dave on Tue May 03, 2016 5:23 pm

Hi,

I've order a box of the 200 grain Zero LSWC to test at 50 yards.  What COAL are you folks using with that bullet?

Thanks,
DF

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by LenV on Tue May 03, 2016 5:51 pm

Its more about the look then the actual measurement. You might trim your cases or not. The measurement that most of us agree on is that you need about a fingernail of bullet sticking out of the case before it narrows down. Someone might have different size fingernails so that is tough to nail down. There has also been a lot of testing done to see if there was much difference in POI if it is seated long or short and the answer is "NO". The important length is the one that works/functions best in your pistol. Sorry if I wasn't more precise.

Len

Mine are 1.247. I have big fingernails Smile


Last edited by OldMaster66 on Tue May 03, 2016 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by james r chapman on Tue May 03, 2016 5:58 pm

make a couple dummy rounds that just fit your magazine. then drop it into your barrel and adjust it till it seats flush with the barrel hood. should get you in the vicinity. you'll want to make sure you take the flare out of the case before chambering it...

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by Jwhelan939 on Tue May 03, 2016 6:01 pm

I also barrel test as described by Mr. Chapman.

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by Super Dave on Tue May 03, 2016 6:17 pm

Thanks guys.  By the way, it's a Kart barrel.
Dave

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by Jon Eulette on Tue May 03, 2016 6:18 pm

I would be cautious about seating too far out. I regularly see lead rings causing failure to fully feed when seated out too far. I seat with shoulder of bullet protruding from case mouth approx. 0.030". Some chambers are more forgiving than others on oal. I also hand cycle with out recoil spring to check feeding smoothness. Should be smooth transition from mag to chamber. Too long can cause glitch in feeding. Will still feed, but not smoothly. For best consistant cycling smooth is best. Hiccups in feeding cause vertical stringing.
Jon

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by Jon Eulette on Tue May 03, 2016 6:21 pm

And another thing: headspace. Most guns I run across have excess headspace. If you seat out for minimal cartridge gap between slide and back of case it can be way too long. Fortunately 45 is forgiving cartridge.
Jon

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by rreid on Tue May 03, 2016 10:21 pm

Mine is 1.245" for what it's worth

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by Super Dave on Tue May 03, 2016 10:56 pm

Great, you guys are a wealth of information.  Thank you very, very much.  
Dave

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by Jerry Keefer on Tue May 03, 2016 11:05 pm

Jon is right.. Probably the most overlooked, misunderstood aspect of the 1911 for target work is headspace.. Notice he is the only one that mentioned it in this thread. Almost no one knows what their headspace actually is..

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by LenV on Wed May 04, 2016 12:54 am

Your right. I have no idea what the headspace is on my 45. I would not be able to do anything about it if I did know. I adjust my load for optimal function and do my best to put them all in the middle. Jon also mentioned that the 45 is very forgiving. Rolling Eyes

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by Christopher Miceli on Wed May 04, 2016 2:34 am

OldMaster66 wrote:Your right. I have no idea what the headspace is on my 45. I would not be able to do anything about it if I did know. I adjust my load for optimal function and do my best to put them all in the middle. Jon also mentioned that the 45 is very forgiving. Rolling Eyes
+1 I don't even know how to measure my head spacing Sad

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by rich.tullo on Wed May 04, 2016 5:53 am

HG 68, 1.235 to 1.24 seems to work best for me for what it is worth.

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by rebs on Wed May 04, 2016 6:41 am

I have been seating mine to 2.250 with H&G 68 lswc bullet. Am I seating too long ? They feed well in my Gold Cup, Glock 21 and Glock 30s

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by james r chapman on Wed May 04, 2016 7:00 am

7 3/8


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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by bdas on Wed May 04, 2016 8:59 am

OldMaster66 wrote:Its more about the look then the actual measurement. ... The measurement that most of us agree on is that you need about a fingernail of bullet sticking out of the case before it narrows down. ... Mine are 1.247. I have big fingernails Smile

As someone who is just starting to reload, and wanting to load 45's for bullseye, I'm very curious how people interpret this "fingernail width" directive. 

Any chance that some of you experienced bullseye reloaders could take photos of your 45 reloads, ideally next to a ruler or caliper, so we could see what you make?  A picture is worth a thousand words in this "case".  Maybe include a few words about which bullet it is, and what the OAL or shoulder height is, just so we know what we're looking at.  It would be much appreciated.

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by noylj on Wed May 04, 2016 9:24 am

Somewhere between 1.244-1.264". If you get a seating stem that only contacts the shoulder of the bullet, it will seat ALL SWCs properly. In general, I seat all lead bullets to almost touch the lede/rifling.
As a note about COL (cartridge overall length):
Per Ramshot:
"SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL”
It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only.
The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.
This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as
1) magazine length (space),
2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel,
3) ogive or profile of the projectile and
4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.
• Always begin loading at the minimum ‘Start Load.’"
 
Your COL (OAL) is determined by your barrel (chamber and throat dimensions) and your gun (feed ramp) and your magazine (COL that fits magazine and when the magazine lips release the round for feeding) and the PARTICULAR bullet you are using. What worked in a pressure barrel or the lab's gun or in my gun has very little to do with what will work best in your gun.
Take the barrel out of the gun. Create two inert dummy rounds (no powder or primer) at max COL and remove enough case mouth flare for rounds to chamber (you can achieve this by using a sized case—expand-and-flare it, and remove the flare just until the case "plunks" in the barrel).
Drop the inert rounds in and decrease the COL until they chamber completely. This will be your "max" effective COL. I prefer to have the case head flush with the barrel hood. After this, place the inert rounds in the magazine and be sure they fit the magazine and feed and chamber.
You can also do this for any chambering problems you have. Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) scratches on bullet--COL is too long
2) scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
5) scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.


Last edited by Rob Kovach on Wed May 04, 2016 1:13 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by LenV on Wed May 04, 2016 11:54 am

bdas,  Jon nailed it above when he said .030". I actually took a caliper and measured some fingernails and that number was vey close. I actually set mine at about .040" because all of my .45s work best at that length. More like a thumbnail Smile . The important things are to make sure that you have enough of the bullet protruding to get a good crimp without distorting the shoulder and also don't stick it out so far that you have feed issues. I have 5 different .45s and all of them like the bullet shown. Notice the very visible crimp. Lead bullets need a good crimp.


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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by Jerry Keefer on Wed May 04, 2016 1:11 pm

I am a proponent  of free bore in target pistols..This is an example of my favorite reamer.. Touching the lands/rifling is for bolt action rifles.. and even then, it's questionable.. We had a recent discussion on recoil.. Freebore, minimum chamber diameter and minimum head space reduces / eliminates the initial pressure spike,  because the projectile begins to move without resistance and the case seizes to the chamber wall much sooner in the ignition event, ending bolt thrust for that pressure period...     


Last edited by Jerry Keefer on Wed May 04, 2016 1:30 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by Rob Kovach on Wed May 04, 2016 1:14 pm

^^^SOOOO NICE^^^^^

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by rich.tullo on Wed May 04, 2016 2:04 pm

bdas wrote:
OldMaster66 wrote:Its more about the look then the actual measurement. ... The measurement that most of us agree on is that you need about a fingernail of bullet sticking out of the case before it narrows down. ... Mine are 1.247. I have big fingernails Smile

As someone who is just starting to reload, and wanting to load 45's for bullseye, I'm very curious how people interpret this "fingernail width" directive. 

Any chance that some of you experienced bullseye reloaders could take photos of your 45 reloads, ideally next to a ruler or caliper, so we could see what you make?  A picture is worth a thousand words in this "case".  Maybe include a few words about which bullet it is, and what the OAL or shoulder height is, just so we know what we're looking at.  It would be much appreciated.
We are talking about the HG 68 SWC or close approximations. The HG 68 was designed by the Air Force (I think) to feed better and provide more stopping power and reliability than Ball ammo. 1.26 is the max for the bullet as the proportions are tangent to a 230 ball's outer diameter loaded to its max COAL 1.28. Many of us are shooting Kart Barrels and I think they have a shorter head space than some factory barrels. 
I just eye ball it but my Karts have run shorter than Kimber and Springfield barrels I take my barrels out and drop a bullet in the chamber and just eyeball the length using this illustration. 

http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305810

I range from flush to normal based on function and accuracy. 

Jerry Keiffer that barrel WOW  

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by Jon Eulette on Wed May 04, 2016 2:49 pm

Kart barrels come short chambered from Kart. When fit to slide headspace is typically barely enough for true match length headspace. Myself and majority of BE smiths have complained to Kart hoping they would really short chamber them. Even though this is the case, the gunsmith has to finish ream the chamber and headspace the chamber in the process. This is the depth the chamber is cut. So the headspace is determined 99% of the time by the gunsmith fitting the barrel. As far as factory barrels go, they are ridiculously deep in most cases. I also run across many pistols with Kart barrels that were improperly headspaced when built by amateur smiths. So for majority of pistols out there, in my experience they have marginally cut headspace chambers. That's why Jerry slaves on his pistols and now is making his own barrels; he has complete control!
Jon

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by Dr.Don on Wed May 04, 2016 3:47 pm

Right on Jon.  And for those who have an old wadgun by a smith like Clark (mine is dated 1983), the barrel was often a factory barrel with the hood and lugs welded and re-fit.  When you weld up a hood it is to add length and width.  Since the chamber already exists, any length added increases the headspace.  Mine has about .020" or so of excess headspace as a result.  It still groups 2" at 50 yds after many thousands of rounds, which is a testimony to the forgiving 45 ACP cartridge and the long "reach" of the inertial firing pin design.

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by 243winxb on Wed May 04, 2016 5:41 pm

This measurement just contacts the rifling. When the end play is removed, accuracy is better. Longer and the action doesnt fully close.

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

Post by james r chapman on Wed May 04, 2016 6:05 pm

Hmmm... so many opinions,
so few targets....

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Re: COAL for Zero 200 grain LSWC

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