Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

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Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Gary Wells on Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:43 pm

I currently reload, shoot, & CLEAN 5 different .45 autos with the same load of R-P nickel cases, WW LPP, 3.5 grs of Alliant Bullseye behind a 180 or 185 gr LSWC, generally a H&G # 130 "button" bullet. Bullseye at that low of a charge is not dirty, it is filthy. Considering going over to VV 310 or VV 320 which I have heard are very clean burning powders. Any recommendations from you pros as to which one and what charge? Counsel please & many thanks in advance.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by DavidR on Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:51 pm

310 is somewhat temperature sensitive, it runs stronger when its hot outside and weaker when it gets below 50 or so, it is cleaner and also costs twice what bullseye does a better alternative might be WST or tight group both are much cleaner and super accurate for bullseye loads.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by LenV on Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:28 pm

If it is really dirty you might not be giving them enough crimp. Just a thought.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by AllAces on Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:33 pm

I run bullseye in all my .38 loads and it is not dirty.  I also run N310 in my .45 loads and it is clean, but as others have said, temperature sensitive.  In weather below 60 degrees I keep all my N310 loads in a small cooler with a couple of those chemical hand warmers.  Above 60 degrees is generally no problem until it hits the 90's, then back in the cooler while at the range.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by 243winxb on Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:00 am

At that light a load/bullet, around 650 fps, i dont see anything being clean using lite lswc. Not an expert. Just my 2 cents.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Jerry Keefer on Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:19 am

We are shooting 2.gr and 2.9 with no issues. 38 /45 respectively.


Some things that affect combustion:
Chamber size ..   SAAMI Spec chambers are always generous in size
Headspace..   Almost always generous unless gunsmith adjusted
Bore size/bullet size/lead/jacketed /leade angles/freebore
 
Crimp and bullet pull actually have little effect, and are reduced rapidly, as the expanding pressures very quickly force the case wall away from the bullet. It's easier to flex the thin .009/.010 case wall away from the projectile than to start the heavy, idle bullet moving..

Two major considerations of  powder choice:
Shooter appeal ; How does it feel to the shooter.. Recovery times..low recoil, perceived or otherwise.  All powders have a distinct pressure curve that produces a different feel to the shooter..IF you look for it..Smile 
Accuracy:  It must be accurate

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by John McCormick on Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:44 am

We are shooting 2.gr and 2.9 with no issues. 38 /45 respectively.


Is this correct--2.9gr Bullseye? What's the rest of the recipe, recoil spring weight, frame or slide mounted dot, etc?

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Christopher Miceli on Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:47 am

John McCormick wrote:We are shooting 2.gr and 2.9 with no issues. 38 /45 respectively.


Is this correct--2.9gr Bullseye? What's the rest of the recipe, recoil spring weight, frame or slide mounted dot, etc?


Magic

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by dronning on Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:17 am

John McCormick wrote:We are shooting 2.gr and 2.9 with no issues. 38 /45 respectively.


Is this correct--2.9gr Bullseye? What's the rest of the recipe, recoil spring weight, frame or slide mounted dot, etc?

I'm not trying to answer for Jerry but I've been following his work on his lady shooters gun with interest.

Here what I know (or I think I know):
frame mounted optic
experimenting with fast twist and single lug barrel(s)  Slower bullet needs more RPM to stabilize = faster twist
very light springs (8-10lb)

Jerry, am I close??

- Dave

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Christopher Miceli on Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:19 am

dronning wrote:
John McCormick wrote:We are shooting 2.gr and 2.9 with no issues. 38 /45 respectively.


Is this correct--2.9gr Bullseye? What's the rest of the recipe, recoil spring weight, frame or slide mounted dot, etc?

I'm not trying to answer for Jerry but I've been following his work on his lady shooters gun with interest.

Here what I know (or I think I know):
frame mounted optic
experimenting with fast twist and single lug barrel(s)  Slower bullet needs more RPM to stabilize = faster twist
very light springs (8-10lb)

Jerry I'am I close??

- Dave
I'm sure he has also done some slide lightening.. though i haven't seen any pics.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Gary Wells on Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:37 pm

Many thanks for all of the comments & suggestions. I had a feeling that the low charge weight of 3.5 gns. was the culprit. I did like the lack of recoil.I did not keep track of the shots fired but it did stop the LB PII dead in it tracks at about 350 rds.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by jmdavis on Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:00 pm

Some of the HM shooters that I know clean their 45's during the 2700 between CF and 45 matches. So the gun is ready to go for the 45 match. We usually have some lunch during that time and they are there with their brake clean or WD40 spraying out the guts of the pistols. 


I have also been told that when using softer projectiles brushing the barrel and running some patches will help to keep the pistol accurate on the long line as you transition from SF to the SF stage of the NMC. It only takes a few seconds.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Jerry Keefer on Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:03 pm

dronning wrote:
John McCormick wrote:We are shooting 2.gr and 2.9 with no issues. 38 /45 respectively.


Is this correct--2.9gr Bullseye? What's the rest of the recipe, recoil spring weight, frame or slide mounted dot, etc?

I'm not trying to answer for Jerry but I've been following his work on his lady shooters gun with interest.

Here what I know (or I think I know):
frame mounted optic
experimenting with fast twist and single lug barrel(s)  Slower bullet needs more RPM to stabilize = faster twist
very light springs (8-10lb)

Jerry, am I close??

- Dave
Yes, Dave.. Very close.. Although,   the recoil spring she selected for feel and recovery is 14 pounds..This is one example of the major plus to a frame mount.. As mentioned in the other thread, and quotes by David Sams..The tuning of the gun is totally independent of the optics on the slide..And her slides are lightened..2.9 ejects brass almost two points down the line..Smile without the brass catcher..AND, I failed to mention, that lead is a different animal when compared to jacketed.


Last edited by Jerry Keefer on Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Jerry Keefer on Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:34 pm

Christopher Miceli wrote:I haven't seen any pics.
The top of both slides have been reduced quite a bit. Internally material has been removed. The 52 has slots cut into the slide in addition to other lightening cuts. Taking as much off the rear as possible, because that is what is hanging back out over the frame and putting the most pressure  on the shooter when the slide stops abruptly against the frame..We videoed rapid fire, and the wrist and forearm are absorbing that shock, and it's quite visible as the wrist is twisted by the slide colliding with the frame..Add the optics to it and the mass, and force  is increased..That's where the injuries are coming from..  Please excuse the grease and dirt.. That 52 is fresh from a match..



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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by jglenn21 on Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:10 pm

different extractor in that 52 ??


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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by 243winxb on Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:15 pm

I see the OP is using  R-P nickel cases. I feel they dont expand and seal the chamber like  plain old brass, using light target loads. Nickel seems harder to me. After many firing, nickel doesnt spring back as much as brass.  Whats the experts have to say on the subject? Ty.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by jglenn21 on Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:21 pm

nickel is ok for practice but has way to many splits for a match

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Wobbley on Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:28 pm

Nickeled cases will split sooner than brass.  Since so much 38 brass is range pickup of questionable vintage, it is best to shoot your own purchased as new brass or brass from factory you fired in a match.  Even then after four or five firings it goes in the practice ammo bin.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Gary Wells on Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:29 pm

OK, I have some things to fess up too. I am 72, have glaucoma & cataracts, & have 5 very nice .45 auto to shoot: WC Classic SG, Springer CS Rob Letham TGO1, Ed Brown ET, early '70 series Jim Hoag longslide, & a Les Baer PII. At 7 yds indoors, I can't even see the .45 auto wadcutter hole. I am trying to get used to new glasses, and basically can't hit my arse with b oth hands. I do love to shoot & reload, and practice both several times a week.
 About 15 years ago, I bought a big bag of 3500 brand new unprimed RP nickel plated. I am just now finishing up and shooting & reloading the last 580 cases. I realize the shortcomings of nickel plated cases abd would not be shooting those if I shot competitively. Under my circumstances I have come to grips & forgiven myself for using nickel. But I am going to up the charge a tenth every reloading cycle & get a grip on that. At my age, I feel entitled to make some concessions whether I like them or not.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by 10sandxs on Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:10 pm

One thing to consider is the lube from the bullet. I've found my guns are much dirtier when I shoot cast and lubed bullets. I've gone to powder coated bullets and the guns run significantly cleaner

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Jerry Keefer on Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:04 pm

jglenn21 wrote:different extractor in that 52 ??

Yes, and the spring is quite small, so I moved the pivot pin forward .200 giving the little spring  more leverage advantage.. Then made a new extractor out of A-2 with an adjusting screw to set the cam out.  Haven't had a failure since..

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by jglenn21 on Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:21 pm

++ nice

I've been very lucky with my wife's 52-1... functions very well

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by john bickar on Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:11 pm

Gary Wells wrote:OK, I have some things to fess up too. I am 72, have glaucoma & cataracts, & have 5 very nice .45 auto to shoot: WC Classic SG, Springer CS Rob Letham TGO1, Ed Brown ET, early '70 series Jim Hoag longslide, & a Les Baer PII. At 7 yds indoors, I can't even see the .45 auto wadcutter hole. I am trying to get used to new glasses, and basically can't hit my arse with b oth hands. I do love to shoot & reload, and practice both several times a week.
 About 15 years ago, I bought a big bag of 3500 brand new unprimed RP nickel plated. I am just now finishing up and shooting & reloading the last 580 cases. I realize the shortcomings of nickel plated cases abd would not be shooting those if I shot competitively. Under my circumstances I have come to grips & forgiven myself for using nickel. But I am going to up the charge a tenth every reloading cycle & get a grip on that. At my age, I feel entitled to make some concessions whether I like them or not.

Do it. Whatever keeps you on the line, man.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by john bickar on Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:23 pm

jmdavis wrote:Some of the HM shooters that I know clean their 45's during the 2700 between CF and 45 matches. So the gun is ready to go for the 45 match. We usually have some lunch during that time and they are there with their brake clean or WD40 spraying out the guts of the pistols. 


I have also been told that when using softer projectiles brushing the barrel and running some patches will help to keep the pistol accurate on the long line as you transition from SF to the SF stage of the NMC. It only takes a few seconds.

Ehhhh...I think this starts to get into the realm of religion, voodoo, and/or superstition. If your pistol can't run 180 rounds without a malfunction, you have a problem that you probably should fix.

I shoot jacketed on the long line and lead on the short line. I do about 10 passes with a dry brush (from the muzzle!) in between switching bullets (I'm sure that will make the gunsmiths on this board cringe), and that's it. Often, I will even go several months and hundreds of rounds (gasp!) without cleaning my .45.

I've shot two 2700s this year: 2646 and 2649. *shrug*

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by LenV on Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:20 am

Gary Wells wrote:OK, I have some things to fess up too. I am 72, have glaucoma & cataracts, & have 5 very nice .45 auto to shoot: WC Classic SG, Springer CS Rob Letham TGO1, Ed Brown ET, early '70 series Jim Hoag longslide, & a Les Baer PII. At 7 yds indoors, I can't even see the .45 auto wadcutter hole. I am trying to get used to new glasses, and basically can't hit my arse with b oth hands. I do love to shoot & reload, and practice both several times a week.
 About 15 years ago, I bought a big bag of 3500 brand new unprimed RP nickel plated. I am just now finishing up and shooting & reloading the last 580 cases. I realize the shortcomings of nickel plated cases abd would not be shooting those if I shot competitively. Under my circumstances I have come to grips & forgiven myself for using nickel. But I am going to up the charge a tenth every reloading cycle & get a grip on that. At my age, I feel entitled to make some concessions whether I like them or not.

Gary,
  I admire your tenacity. When (if) I make it to 72 I hope I have the same spirit. I have already started to feel the age creeping up on me. I would have just gave up and went home in my last 2700 if Roddy Toyota hadn't of come to my rescue. Roddy was calling the match and when he saw me struggling he started going down and scoring/replacing targets for me. I felt bad my body couldn't keep up but Roddy saved the day for me. Thanks again Roddy. I was lucky the VA bought me a new MachII eyeball (cataracts). Now I need to get them to spring for a little back surgery. I may get to shoot only part of the next match but I still plan on going and shooting and reloading. This great sport is one you can have fun in until they throw dirt in your face. In some sports you can make it to the top of your field then struggle a little bit and you never see their face again. Anyone seen Tiger lately? Smile

Len

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

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